doohickey madness

[mwl_95623]

What is the general consensus for braking in the rain? When I was trained some 25+ years ago I was told "NOT" to use the front brake. And I didn't. This from the same guy who also taught me counter- steering back in the mid-seventies; long before I ever heard it brought into mainstream discussion. If I remember correctly he was afraid I'd grab a handfull in a panic situation. He used to say that I should imagine my right hand was duct tapped to the right handgrip. And although I always tried to avoid the rain as much as possible, I never had a rain related mishap(knock-on-wood)in that era (55K mostly touring miles). Since returning to motorcycling, I've really have not heard or read anything to really change my mind. I've read on this list to use both brakes right up to the point of lockup, but in the rain locking up the front tire could be the last thing you ever do. I would think :{ Matt P.S. I just turned over 20K (mostly commuter) miles on the KLR. I just got back into the adventure 6/2002.

[Brad]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "mwl_95623" wrote:

> What is the general consensus for braking in the rain? When I was > trained some 25+ years ago I was told "NOT" to use the front

brake.

> And I didn't. This from the same guy who also taught me counter- > steering back in the mid-seventies; long before I ever heard it > brought into mainstream discussion. If I remember correctly he

was

> afraid I'd grab a handfull in a panic situation. He used to say

that

> I should imagine my right hand was duct tapped to the right > handgrip. And although I always tried to avoid the rain as much as > possible, I never had a rain related mishap(knock-on-wood)in that > era (55K mostly touring miles). Since returning to motorcycling, > I've really have not heard or read anything to really change my > mind. I've read on this list to use both brakes right up to the > point of lockup, but in the rain locking up the front tire could be > the last thing you ever do. I would think :{ > > Matt > > P.S. I just turned over 20K (mostly commuter) miles on the KLR. I > just got back into the adventure 6/2002.

In the dry or wet my braking technique doesn't change, the majority is on the front brake at all times, this is the only way to stop safely and quickly. You just need to aware of the reduced traction available for those threshold braking moments that may come up. The only time I conciously think about not using the front is in the dirt, gravel or snow. 30 plus years of riding in the great Pacific NorthWet and never had a problem with using the front brake except in the dirt. First drop of the KLR couple years ago w/ 60 some miles on it, came off the road and braked in gravel while turning at a slow speed and just flopped it over. Don't throw away 70% of your braking because the roads are wet, that's what would be dangerous when you need it most you won't have the skills or muscle memory to use it. Brad A15 Centralia, WA

[Chris]

On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 08:29:05PM -0000, mwl_95623 wrote:

> What is the general consensus for braking in the rain? When I was > trained some 25+ years ago I was told "NOT" to use the front brake. > And I didn't. This from the same guy who also taught me counter- > steering back in the mid-seventies; long before I ever heard it > brought into mainstream discussion. If I remember correctly he was > afraid I'd grab a handfull in a panic situation. He used to say that > I should imagine my right hand was duct tapped to the right > handgrip.

Nonsense, you have something like 80% traction available in the wet, carry on as usual where your front brake is fully 70% of the available stopping power of your bike. You should spend time practicing hauling any bike you ride down as fast as possible at varying speeds. Go to a large parking lot, fire yourself up to 60+ and stop as fast as you can. Practice the same thing in the wet. The rear brake on a bike is for parking lot speeds and the same on loose surfaces, great for holding you on hills too. To actually stop a bike you use the front.

>And although I always tried to avoid the rain as much as > possible, I never had a rain related mishap(knock-on-wood)in that > era (55K mostly touring miles).

Make a point of taking rides in the wet to 'get over it', it could save your life.

> Matt > > P.S. I just turned over 20K (mostly commuter) miles on the KLR. I > just got back into the adventure 6/2002.

You have TONS more miles than I do under your seat, get out and practice braking and riding in the wet and you'll enjoy things so much more. -- ___ ______ _____ __ ________ ___ / _ |< < / == / ___/__ / /_ /_ __/ / __ ____ _ ___ /__ \ / __ |/ // / ****/ (_ / _ \/ __/ / / / _ \/ // / ' \/ _ \ /__/ /_/ |_/_//_/ == \___/\___/\__/ /_/ /_//_/\_,_/_/_/_/ .__/ (_) 8600 miles*Russel Lines*Supertrapp Race* /_/ http://www.panix.com/~cesser/mybike/

[Mike T]

Thanks Chris from a 'dry' rider. Your clarification on Shield mods is appreciated. I am saving your post in my "wet riding" folder. Dry in the desert, but will get wet one day. I'll leave the Rain-X for glass only usage. Mike T A16 Las Vegas -----Original Message----- From: Chris [mailto:kingsqueak@...] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:16 AM To: KLR 650 LIST Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Tips for riding in the rain

On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 04:33:26AM -0800, Dan Dyer wrote: > I would recomend a product called Fog City (I think) I live in Portland and have used this product on all my helmets. It's a clear piece of flexible plastic that attatchs to the inside of your helmet visor. This will keep you visor from fogging up. Also, watch out for standing water on I-5. The stretch from Eugene to Portland has become very rutted. Have fun and try to stay dry. > > Dan > I second the Fog City Pro Shield, it's basically a peel and stick sheet of vinyl that acts like a mini storm window. It is pretty much magical how well it works. Take your shield and clean it absolutely spotless, then follow the instructions. My only tip is that when the shield is off and you are sticking on the shield that you curve the shield up to match how it is when on the helmet. The reason, if you stick the Fog City shield on when the visor is stretched out flatter, when you curve it back up, it will bubble....which is intolerable while riding. Once it's on, at night you get the very slightest bit of a halo around oncoming lights but it is FAR less noticeable than any fogging you'd get. As far as the visor goes, using 303 Aerospace Protectant, a biodegradeable ArmorAll sort of thing, works great to help water run off the outside as well as making it much easier to clean bugs off when you make a stop. You apply it, rub it in, and buff it until it's completely streak free. Lasts me a couple months before I need to reapply it and it won't make your shield brittle like Rain-X will. -- ___ ______ _____ __ ________ ___ / _ |< < / == / ___/__ / /_ /_ __/ / __ ____ _ ___ /__ \ / __ |/ // / ****/ (_ / _ \/ __/ / / / _ \/ // / ' \/ _ \ /__/ /_/ |_/_//_/ == \___/\___/\__/ /_/ /_//_/\_,_/_/_/_/ .__/ (_) 8600 miles*Russel Lines*Supertrapp Race* /_/ http://www.panix.com/~cesser/mybike/ List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSN_klr650/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

[Mike T]

Gee, HD means HEAVY DUTY Harley Davidson to you. The Ducati fragrances come out next year I have found that BMW crates make for great OSHA compliant armor ;-\ Mike T A16 Las vegas -----Original Message----- From: jwalsh21@... [mailto:jwalsh21@...] Sent: Saturday, December 20, 2003 9:33 AM To: Mike T; 'puzzledpanthermlm' Cc: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: RE: [DSN_klr650] Tips for riding in the rain Harley Davidson trash bags now? What next; HD cosmetics? -Jim in AZ

> > Wrom: KEDOTWFAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVW > Date: 2003/12/19 Fri PM 11:40:32 EST > To: "'puzzledpanthermlm'" > CC: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> > Subject: RE: [DSN_klr650] Tips for riding in the rain > > Packing tape helps in sealing helmet and junctions of riding gear. HD

trash

> bags are great for waterproofing gear. ...

[bigfatgreenbike]

kingsqueak@... wrote:

>On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 04:33:26AM -0800, Dan Dyer wrote: > > >>I would recomend a product called Fog City (I think) I live in Portland and have used this product on all my helmets. It's a clear piece of flexible plastic >> >I second the Fog City Pro Shield, it's basically a peel and stick >sheet of vinyl that acts like a mini storm window. It is pretty much >magical how well it works. Take your shield and clean it absolutely >spotless, then follow the instructions. My only tip is that when the >shield is off and you are sticking on the shield that you curve the >shield up to match how it is when on the helmet. The reason, if you >stick the Fog City shield on when the visor is stretched out flatter, >when you curve it back up, it will bubble....which is intolerable >while riding. > >Once it's on, at night you get the very slightest bit of a halo around >oncoming lights but it is FAR less noticeable than any fogging you'd >get. > >

Some people have found the halo and the double reflections at night dangerously annoying, but I always found them a lot better than being blinded by a fogged faceshield, or watery eyes from having my helmet cracked at very cold temps. The Fog City liner is made from a soft plastic and scratches easily. Perhaps you could clean it with a good lens cloth. Don't put your keys or gloves in your helmet. -- Devon Brooklyn, NY A15-Z '01 KLR650 '81 SR500 cafe racer "The truth's not too popular these days....." Arnold Schwarzenneger, in The Running Man

[Chris]

On Sun, Dec 21, 2003 at 12:35:51AM -0500, Devon Jarvis wrote:

> Some people have found the halo and the double reflections at night > dangerously annoying, but I always found them a lot better than being > blinded by a fogged faceshield, or watery eyes from having my helmet > cracked at very cold temps.

Yeah I agree. I'm the type that is fanatical about clean sunglasses (which I can't ever leave without if it's even daylight out let alone bright sun), clean windshields, and now a clean visor. I've got 20/10 in both eyes and small things annoy me, but the halo effect is so much more minimal than the foggy haze effect I can deal with it. As a matter of fact, the first bike night I bailed on was mainly due to being nearly blind from the slightest fogging from breath while riding at night...I couldn't see much of anything. Now I can ride at night or in early morning cold without a hesitation. I'll also note that I have a Shoei RF900, while wonderfully quiet and weathertight, it's miserably vented and now that it's cold, nearly dangerous how easily it fogs.

> The Fog City liner is made from a soft plastic and scratches easily. > Perhaps you could clean it with a good lens cloth. Don't put your keys > or gloves in your helmet. > > -- > Devon > Brooklyn, NY

I clean my visor all the time, at least once a week and I've found that lots of water and regular dish detergent is enough to keep from scratching the Fog City thing. It definitely would not stand up to a dry paper towel too well though, best washed while wet. -- ___ ______ _____ __ ________ ___ / _ |< < / == / ___/__ / /_ /_ __/ / __ ____ _ ___ /__ \ / __ |/ // / ****/ (_ / _ \/ __/ / / / _ \/ // / ' \/ _ \ /__/ /_/ |_/_//_/ == \___/\___/\__/ /_/ /_//_/\_,_/_/_/_/ .__/ (_) 8600 miles*Russel Lines*Supertrapp Race* /_/ http://www.panix.com/~cesser/mybike/

[mwl_95623]

> On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 08:29:05PM -0000, mwl_95623 wrote: > > What is the general consensus for braking in the rain? When I > > was trained some 25+ years ago I was told "NOT" to use the front > > brake. --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Chris wrote: > Nonsense, you have something like 80% traction available in the >wet, carry on as usual where your front brake is fully 70% of the >available stopping power of your bike. Chris, I know the intent of your advice is good. And I know you're just trying to drive home the fact that it's OK to use the front brake since I said I didn't use it at all. Well, atually I do but I am still fairly cautious with it. I think it's dangerous to assume you have 80% of available traction in the wet. I just don't buy it. I will agree that under the most ideal conditions (i.e. race track) a motorcycle has 80% traction, but not on the city streets. There are just too many variables. Puddles, oil slicks, antifreeze, painted traffic lines, and steel plates to name just a few. Hit one of these in an emergency stop on a wet day and you could be screwed. And what about turns? Do you believe the 80/70 rule applies in turns? I'm not advocating riding scared but I think it's dangerous to hit the streets in the rain with an 80/70 attitude. Be careful. Some of my most memorable rides have been before, during and after a rain. By no means do I claim to be an expert but here are a few things I try to do to help reduce risk: 1. Make a game out of it. To me motorcycling is a lot like playing defense in baseball. You always have to be thinking. Example: Runners on 1st and 2nd with myself in Center Field. Fly ball...throw behind the runner who left early, otherwise ahead. Grounder...throw in front of the lead runner. Over my head ... hit the cutoff. Blooper? Tweener? etc. The list goes on and the correct reaction may be different for every player given his/her position. My point is that when it's raining, foggy, hailing or just downright cold you should treat the conditions as if it were bases loaded. 2. It's a given stopping distances are increased in the wet. So now, more than ever, be sure have an escape plan and rely on manuverability more so than braking to avoid an accident. 3. Keep in mind that if your braking is compromised so is the person's behind you. 4. Alter your route according to the conditions. For example, in the fog I'll opt for the freeway instead of the desolate back country roads. I'd rather follow slow moving tail lights than be out in the middle of nowhere with my little tail light, wimpy headlight and compromised face shield visibilty. Same goes for when I suspect black ice. Much safer on the freeway where I live. The opposite is true for rain. I avoid traffic and welcome the back roads. But look out for the deer! They seem extra active in the rain. 5. In cold and wet conditions most of us are bundled up wearing bulkier clothing. This alone, especially thicker gloves, increases braking response time. Covering the brake helps. And generally, unless you're using electrics, you will eventually get cold and this too reduces response time. 6. Slow down. Try not to get yourself in a postion where you might have to use all of your available traction. 7. Wear the best gear you can afford. I know there's lots more. Some of it given in here before. And like Chris said, practice! Matt

[bigfatgreenbike]

mwl_95623@... wrote:

>>On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 08:29:05PM -0000, mwl_95623 wrote: >> >> >>>What is the general consensus for braking in the rain? When I >>>was trained some 25+ years ago I was told "NOT" to use the front >>>brake. >>> >>> > > >--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Chris wrote: > > >>Nonsense, you have something like 80% traction available in the >>wet, carry on as usual where your front brake is fully 70% of the >>available stopping power of your bike. >> >> > > >Chris, > >I know the intent of your advice is good. And I know you're just >trying to drive home the fact that it's OK to use the front brake >since I said I didn't use it at all. Well, atually I do but I am >still fairly cautious with it. I think it's dangerous to assume >you have 80% of available traction in the wet. I just don't buy >it. I will agree that under the most ideal conditions (i.e. race >track) a motorcycle has 80% traction, but not on the city streets. >There are just too many variables. Puddles, oil slicks, antifreeze, >painted traffic lines, and steel plates to name just a few. >

You still have those in dry weather, and they're still slick. The 80% rule is an accepted fact in roadracing, but you are absolutely right that you'd be a fool to count on it. I don't think that's what Chris meant though, and you did say you NEVER use the front brake.

>Hit one >of these in an emergency stop on a wet day and you could be screwed. >And what about turns? Do you believe the 80/70 rule applies in >turns? I'm not advocating riding scared but I think it's dangerous >to hit the streets in the rain with an 80/70 attitude. Be careful. >

The thing that helps me is whenever I'm caught in the rain, anytime I can test the brakes while upright I do. I can easily lock the front in the wet and recover, in a straight line. This goes a long to telling me how much traction I have available for cornering, etc. And BTW while DOT knobbies have less absolute traction, in the wet as well, the way they break traction makes them MUCH more controllable once a skid starts. Because the knobs are tall enough to bend, they skid, then bend straight, catch, and skid again etc. Kind of a funny blubbering noise where I still have maybe 20-25% traction and lots of time to recover (release the brake, let the bike stand up etc).

> >Some of my most memorable rides have been before, during and after a >rain. By no means do I claim to be an expert but here are a few >things I try to do to help reduce risk: > >1. Make a game out of it. To me motorcycling is a lot like playing >defense in baseball. You always have to be thinking. Example: >Runners on 1st and 2nd with myself in Center Field. Fly >ball...throw behind the runner who left early, otherwise ahead. >Grounder...throw in front of the lead runner. Over my head ... hit >the cutoff. Blooper? Tweener? etc. The list goes on and the correct >reaction may be different for every player given his/her position. >My point is that when it's raining, foggy, hailing or just downright >cold you should treat the conditions as if it were bases loaded. > >2. It's a given stopping distances are increased in the wet. So >now, more than ever, be sure have an escape plan and rely on >manuverability more so than braking to avoid an accident. > >3. Keep in mind that if your braking is compromised so is the >person's behind you. >

Particularly in the city, learn the habit of checking your mirrors every time you brake hard.

> >4. Alter your route according to the conditions. For example, in >the fog I'll opt for the freeway instead of the desolate back >country roads. I'd rather follow slow moving tail lights than be >out in the middle of nowhere with my little tail light, wimpy >headlight and compromised face shield visibilty. Same goes for when >I suspect black ice. >

HA! http://xd8ad0695.ip.e-nt.net/klr/studs_2.jpg

>Much safer on the freeway where I live. The >opposite is true for rain. I avoid traffic and welcome the back >roads. But look out for the deer! They seem extra active in the >rain. >

And in the very early morning. And they're rarely alone. -- Devon Brooklyn, NY A15-Z '01 KLR650 '81 SR500 cafe racer "The truth's not too popular these days....." Arnold Schwarzenneger, in The Running Man

[Chris]

Yeah, I agree with what you said there. Yes I believe that aside from the usual wet obstacle hazards, oil, painted lines, metal surfaces, that you do have that much traction, even in turns. I do ride a lot more conservatively when it's wet though. I just wanted to make the point that I don't consider it a reason not to ride. Ice and runoff when the temp is near freezing keeps me home every time though, that one I just can't get over.

On Mon, Dec 22, 2003 at 05:42:22AM -0000, mwl_95623 wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 20, 2003 at 08:29:05PM -0000, mwl_95623 wrote: > > > What is the general consensus for braking in the rain? When I > > > was trained some 25+ years ago I was told "NOT" to use the front > > > brake. > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Chris wrote: > > Nonsense, you have something like 80% traction available in the > >wet, carry on as usual where your front brake is fully 70% of the > >available stopping power of your bike. > > > Chris, > > I know the intent of your advice is good. And I know you're just > trying to drive home the fact that it's OK to use the front brake > since I said I didn't use it at all. Well, atually I do but I am > still fairly cautious with it. I think it's dangerous to assume > you have 80% of available traction in the wet. I just don't buy > it. I will agree that under the most ideal conditions (i.e. race > track) a motorcycle has 80% traction, but not on the city streets. > There are just too many variables. Puddles, oil slicks, antifreeze, > painted traffic lines, and steel plates to name just a few. Hit one > of these in an emergency stop on a wet day and you could be screwed. > And what about turns? Do you believe the 80/70 rule applies in > turns? I'm not advocating riding scared but I think it's dangerous > to hit the streets in the rain with an 80/70 attitude. Be careful. > > Some of my most memorable rides have been before, during and after a > rain. By no means do I claim to be an expert but here are a few > things I try to do to help reduce risk: > > 1. Make a game out of it. To me motorcycling is a lot like playing > defense in baseball. You always have to be thinking. Example: > Runners on 1st and 2nd with myself in Center Field. Fly > ball...throw behind the runner who left early, otherwise ahead. > Grounder...throw in front of the lead runner. Over my head ... hit > the cutoff. Blooper? Tweener? etc. The list goes on and the correct > reaction may be different for every player given his/her position. > My point is that when it's raining, foggy, hailing or just downright > cold you should treat the conditions as if it were bases loaded. > > 2. It's a given stopping distances are increased in the wet. So > now, more than ever, be sure have an escape plan and rely on > manuverability more so than braking to avoid an accident. > > 3. Keep in mind that if your braking is compromised so is the > person's behind you. > > 4. Alter your route according to the conditions. For example, in > the fog I'll opt for the freeway instead of the desolate back > country roads. I'd rather follow slow moving tail lights than be > out in the middle of nowhere with my little tail light, wimpy > headlight and compromised face shield visibilty. Same goes for when > I suspect black ice. Much safer on the freeway where I live. The > opposite is true for rain. I avoid traffic and welcome the back > roads. But look out for the deer! They seem extra active in the > rain. > > 5. In cold and wet conditions most of us are bundled up wearing > bulkier clothing. This alone, especially thicker gloves, increases > braking response time. Covering the brake helps. And generally, > unless you're using electrics, you will eventually get cold and this > too reduces response time. > > 6. Slow down. Try not to get yourself in a postion where you might > have to use all of your available traction. > > 7. Wear the best gear you can afford. > > I know there's lots more. Some of it given in here before. And > like Chris said, practice! > > Matt > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSN_klr650/ > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > -- ___ ______ _____ __ ________ ___ / _ |< < / == / ___/__ / /_ /_ __/ / __ ____ _ ___ /__ \ / __ |/ // / ****/ (_ / _ \/ __/ / / / _ \/ // / ' \/ _ \ /__/ /_/ |_/_//_/ == \___/\___/\__/ /_/ /_//_/\_,_/_/_/_/ .__/ (_) 8600 miles*Russel Lines*Supertrapp Race* /_/ http://www.panix.com/~cesser/mybike/