Terry, When I get back to California -ETA the first of May- I'll look at
that TA body I have lying around. It has an entirely different body number
on the metal plate which indicates an early body type. Whether or not there
is a number in the wood member is unknown to me. But I'll let you know.
See you at Mt Dora before then. Are you bringing the SA?
Dick
Re: Body Numbers
-
MikeMarjot@aol.com
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 3:21 am
Re: body numbers
If you maximise your email window hopefully the table will line up OK.
I have looked at the body information and selected those items which show
both the 'body serial number' (prefix) and the 'batch number' (Suffix)
From this I have devised a spreadsheet showing the information.
It is sorted by type and by Suffix within that.
If we take 'norris' onwards then the suffix and chassis rise in sequence.
Unfortunately 'grunau' TC 5573 breaks the sequence being produced in May 48
but having a body prefix correctly rising but a suffix which is greater than
it should be (if there is a natural ascending seqence!)
Bob perhaps you could confirm that the information given in your email of the
29th March at 15.18 is correct for TC 5573 and not mis-entered?
NAME TYPE CHASSIS BODY PREFIX CODE SUFFIX MONTH YEAR ADJ
CHASSIS dIFF1 DIFF2
fitz TA 2070 B270 900 7183 2
38 820 -80 20
TA 2361 B270 1201 8215 4
38 1111 -90 10
grunau TC 5573 B280 5348 A 29971 5 48
5322 -26 74
grunau TC 5054 B280 4829 A 29990 4 48
4803 -26 74
norris TC 5221 B280 4996 A 31162 4 48
4970 -26 74
fritz TC 6756 B280 6530 A 32534 10
48 6505 -25 75
tc48td5 TC 6768 B280 6542 A 32557 10 48
6517 -25 75
shade TC 7344 B280 7116 A 33101 12 48
7093 -23 77
grunau TC 8654 B280 8421 A 38745 5 49
8403 -18 82
sherrell TC 9491 B280 9240 A 39102 8 49
9240 0 100
I make the following observations.
TAs do not appear to have a letter in the body number section (on the
evidence of 2 bodies!)
Sherrell seems to indicate (obscurely) that the TC body serial numbers
started at 1 not some MG 'funny number'. This is OK!
Treating this as valid then the differences for the TCs (Diff 1 with no
adjustment) are from 18 - 26 between adjusted chassis and body serial number.
TCs all seem to have a 'A' in the body number separating the two halves -
anyone got an exception?
There are only 2 TAs on the list but Clausagers statement that the body
serial numbers started at 100 for TAs/TBs seems likely.
See Diff 2 which adjusts body serial by 100 gets to within 10 - 20 of
correlation. I have adjusted chassis numbers to allow for the change of body
from B269 to B270. Both Diff 1 and Diff 2 have been adjusted to allow for
production chassis start of 253 for TA and 252 for TC.
The differences are very consistent which is promising. The consistent
difference in the range (nearly all in 23 - 26 range for the TCs). Note
Sherrells 0 value!
He jokingly claims his is the only correct body / chassis match but equally
it could be evidence that someone has 'made up' a neat body plate to 'fit'
with the known chassis number!
Any comments or more body/chassis information?
Mike Marjot
I have looked at the body information and selected those items which show
both the 'body serial number' (prefix) and the 'batch number' (Suffix)
From this I have devised a spreadsheet showing the information.
It is sorted by type and by Suffix within that.
If we take 'norris' onwards then the suffix and chassis rise in sequence.
Unfortunately 'grunau' TC 5573 breaks the sequence being produced in May 48
but having a body prefix correctly rising but a suffix which is greater than
it should be (if there is a natural ascending seqence!)
Bob perhaps you could confirm that the information given in your email of the
29th March at 15.18 is correct for TC 5573 and not mis-entered?
NAME TYPE CHASSIS BODY PREFIX CODE SUFFIX MONTH YEAR ADJ
CHASSIS dIFF1 DIFF2
fitz TA 2070 B270 900 7183 2
38 820 -80 20
TA 2361 B270 1201 8215 4
38 1111 -90 10
grunau TC 5573 B280 5348 A 29971 5 48
5322 -26 74
grunau TC 5054 B280 4829 A 29990 4 48
4803 -26 74
norris TC 5221 B280 4996 A 31162 4 48
4970 -26 74
fritz TC 6756 B280 6530 A 32534 10
48 6505 -25 75
tc48td5 TC 6768 B280 6542 A 32557 10 48
6517 -25 75
shade TC 7344 B280 7116 A 33101 12 48
7093 -23 77
grunau TC 8654 B280 8421 A 38745 5 49
8403 -18 82
sherrell TC 9491 B280 9240 A 39102 8 49
9240 0 100
I make the following observations.
TAs do not appear to have a letter in the body number section (on the
evidence of 2 bodies!)
Sherrell seems to indicate (obscurely) that the TC body serial numbers
started at 1 not some MG 'funny number'. This is OK!
Treating this as valid then the differences for the TCs (Diff 1 with no
adjustment) are from 18 - 26 between adjusted chassis and body serial number.
TCs all seem to have a 'A' in the body number separating the two halves -
anyone got an exception?
There are only 2 TAs on the list but Clausagers statement that the body
serial numbers started at 100 for TAs/TBs seems likely.
See Diff 2 which adjusts body serial by 100 gets to within 10 - 20 of
correlation. I have adjusted chassis numbers to allow for the change of body
from B269 to B270. Both Diff 1 and Diff 2 have been adjusted to allow for
production chassis start of 253 for TA and 252 for TC.
The differences are very consistent which is promising. The consistent
difference in the range (nearly all in 23 - 26 range for the TCs). Note
Sherrells 0 value!
He jokingly claims his is the only correct body / chassis match but equally
it could be evidence that someone has 'made up' a neat body plate to 'fit'
with the known chassis number!
Any comments or more body/chassis information?
Mike Marjot
-
Gene Wescott
- Posts: 27
- Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2000 1:38 pm
Re: body numbers
My 47 TC 3387 has body No. 3209A 16710
Gene Wescott
Gene Wescott
-
CVMGA@aol.com
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Sun Nov 28, 1999 12:56 pm
Re: body numbers
Here is another piece for the puzzle:
The car is titled as 1946.
Serial: TC/0556
Engine: XPAG 1098
Body Type: B280
Body No: 405A1306
I do not see any number embossed in the original wood. Where exactly might I
look?
Bruce Woodson
The car is titled as 1946.
Serial: TC/0556
Engine: XPAG 1098
Body Type: B280
Body No: 405A1306
I do not see any number embossed in the original wood. Where exactly might I
look?
Bruce Woodson
-
MikeMarjot@aol.com
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 3:21 am
Re: body numbers
Dear all,
Sorry about my last effort, the table proved unreadable! Here goes again.
Taking all the relevant e-mails on this subject I have looked at the body
information and selected those items which show
both the 'body serial number' (prefix) and the 'batch number' (Suffix)
From this I have devised a spreadsheet showing the information.
It is sorted by Type and by Suffix (The second part of the Body Number)
within that.
Looking at the spreadsheet (attached) if we take 'norris' onwards then the
suffix and chassis' rise in sequence.
Unfortunately 'grunau' TC 5573 breaks the sequence being produced in May 48
but having a body prefix correctly rising but a suffix which is less than
it should be (if there is in fact a natural ascending sequence)!
Bob perhaps you could confirm that the information given in your e-mail of
the
29th March at 15.18 is correct for TC 5573 and not mis-entered?
I make the following observations.
TAs do not appear to have a letter in the body number section (on the
evidence of 2 bodies)!
Sherrell seems to indicate (obscurely through his sample tables on page 77)
that the TC body serial numbers
started at 1 not some MG 'funny number'. This is OK! It differs from what
Clausager says about TAs and TBs but he makes no comment on TCs.
Treating this as valid then the differences for the TCs (Diff 1 - with no
adjustment) are from 18 - 26 between adjusted chassis and body serial number.
The formula
TCs all seem to have a 'A' in the body number separating the two halves -
anyone got an exception?
There are only 2 TAs on the list but Clausager's statement that the body
serial numbers started at 100 for TAs/TBs seems likely.
See Diff 2 which adjusts body serial by 100 gets to within 10 - 20 of
correlation. I have adjusted chassis numbers to allow for the change of body
from B269 to B270. Both Diff 1 and Diff 2 have been adjusted to allow for
production chassis start of 253 for TA and 252 for TC.
The differences are very consistent which is promising. The consistent
difference in the range (nearly all in 23 - 26 range for the TCs). Note
Sherrell's 0 value! He jokingly claims his is the only correct body / chassis
match but equally it could be evidence that someone has 'made up' a neat
body plate to 'fit' with the known chassis number!
P.S. I hate it when new evidence arrives - it ALWAYS proves the death of a
good theory! Between my first (useless) effort and this one, Gene Wescott has
just added his details: TC 3387 body No. 3209 A 16710 !
This is fine both for the body serial number sequence (prefix) and for the
remaining 'batch number' (suffix). However when we difference to see what the
gap between adjusted chassis and body serial number is we get a - 73
difference in the unadjusted body serial number and 27 if we adjust by a
hundred as Clausager suggests for the TA/TB. This is the opposite of what I
would have liked. More numbers please.
I did think a little hypothesising might be fun. It was suggested by Dean
Jensen that the first two digits of the suffix might be a month number
starting from Sept. 1945 = 1. I agreed with the month idea but wondered if
the numbering started at the very beginning. I thought it would all work out
neater if the month system started later than Sept. 1945 say Jan 1946. My
justification was that I suspected that if any system existed in Sept. 45 it
was what existed in 1939 and it may have taken a few months to get a new
system underway, as Morris Motor Bodies got their own act into gear. I got
the impression MG were pushing it to get some machines out in 1945 and it was
only a few dozen.
Actually using the body information available the numbering system has to
start in Sept. or October 1945 otherwise some builds were taking place BEFORE
their relevant body had been produced. Are bodies being shuffled around
between chassis - that's not fair! The worry is that the spreadsheet
indicates that if the system is correct then bodies were being produced up to
9 months before they were used! But this runs contrary to the spreadsheet
which indicates their may only be a difference of 20ish in the average
relative differences between the body serial number and the chassis number.
This would infer they are being processed in some sort of sync which makes it
unlikely there is a massive stockpile of bodies (are there any records?). I
think we may need another theory!
We need more numbers! Especially very early 1945/46 and very late 49 TCs to
show any aberrations, plus lots of meat in the middle order.
Mike
Sorry about my last effort, the table proved unreadable! Here goes again.
Taking all the relevant e-mails on this subject I have looked at the body
information and selected those items which show
both the 'body serial number' (prefix) and the 'batch number' (Suffix)
From this I have devised a spreadsheet showing the information.
It is sorted by Type and by Suffix (The second part of the Body Number)
within that.
Looking at the spreadsheet (attached) if we take 'norris' onwards then the
suffix and chassis' rise in sequence.
Unfortunately 'grunau' TC 5573 breaks the sequence being produced in May 48
but having a body prefix correctly rising but a suffix which is less than
it should be (if there is in fact a natural ascending sequence)!
Bob perhaps you could confirm that the information given in your e-mail of
the
29th March at 15.18 is correct for TC 5573 and not mis-entered?
I make the following observations.
TAs do not appear to have a letter in the body number section (on the
evidence of 2 bodies)!
Sherrell seems to indicate (obscurely through his sample tables on page 77)
that the TC body serial numbers
started at 1 not some MG 'funny number'. This is OK! It differs from what
Clausager says about TAs and TBs but he makes no comment on TCs.
Treating this as valid then the differences for the TCs (Diff 1 - with no
adjustment) are from 18 - 26 between adjusted chassis and body serial number.
The formula
TCs all seem to have a 'A' in the body number separating the two halves -
anyone got an exception?
There are only 2 TAs on the list but Clausager's statement that the body
serial numbers started at 100 for TAs/TBs seems likely.
See Diff 2 which adjusts body serial by 100 gets to within 10 - 20 of
correlation. I have adjusted chassis numbers to allow for the change of body
from B269 to B270. Both Diff 1 and Diff 2 have been adjusted to allow for
production chassis start of 253 for TA and 252 for TC.
The differences are very consistent which is promising. The consistent
difference in the range (nearly all in 23 - 26 range for the TCs). Note
Sherrell's 0 value! He jokingly claims his is the only correct body / chassis
match but equally it could be evidence that someone has 'made up' a neat
body plate to 'fit' with the known chassis number!
P.S. I hate it when new evidence arrives - it ALWAYS proves the death of a
good theory! Between my first (useless) effort and this one, Gene Wescott has
just added his details: TC 3387 body No. 3209 A 16710 !
This is fine both for the body serial number sequence (prefix) and for the
remaining 'batch number' (suffix). However when we difference to see what the
gap between adjusted chassis and body serial number is we get a - 73
difference in the unadjusted body serial number and 27 if we adjust by a
hundred as Clausager suggests for the TA/TB. This is the opposite of what I
would have liked. More numbers please.
I did think a little hypothesising might be fun. It was suggested by Dean
Jensen that the first two digits of the suffix might be a month number
starting from Sept. 1945 = 1. I agreed with the month idea but wondered if
the numbering started at the very beginning. I thought it would all work out
neater if the month system started later than Sept. 1945 say Jan 1946. My
justification was that I suspected that if any system existed in Sept. 45 it
was what existed in 1939 and it may have taken a few months to get a new
system underway, as Morris Motor Bodies got their own act into gear. I got
the impression MG were pushing it to get some machines out in 1945 and it was
only a few dozen.
Actually using the body information available the numbering system has to
start in Sept. or October 1945 otherwise some builds were taking place BEFORE
their relevant body had been produced. Are bodies being shuffled around
between chassis - that's not fair! The worry is that the spreadsheet
indicates that if the system is correct then bodies were being produced up to
9 months before they were used! But this runs contrary to the spreadsheet
which indicates their may only be a difference of 20ish in the average
relative differences between the body serial number and the chassis number.
This would infer they are being processed in some sort of sync which makes it
unlikely there is a massive stockpile of bodies (are there any records?). I
think we may need another theory!
We need more numbers! Especially very early 1945/46 and very late 49 TCs to
show any aberrations, plus lots of meat in the middle order.
Mike
-
MikeMarjot@aol.com
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 3:21 am
Re: body numbers
Dear all,
Failed to send the spreadsheet - here it is! No wonder they retired me early!
Mike
Failed to send the spreadsheet - here it is! No wonder they retired me early!
Mike
-
MikeMarjot@aol.com
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 3:21 am
Re: body numbers
Bruce,
I have just e-mailed a spreadsheet putting all the cars noted so far in a
spreadsheet. It is very inconclusive so far but your e-mail was fascinating.
I have been speculating along with Dean Jensen that the suffix of the body
serial number, in your case 1306 started with a month then a serial number
within the month.
Clausager says the suffix is a Morris Motor Bodies 'batch number' but does
not indicate how it is made up. In your case the month part of the number
would be 01 and the remainder (batch serial number) would be 306. The
circumstantial evidence suggests this rather than a batch number of 13 and a
serial number of 06.
This means that your body batch number is 1 and the serial 306 means your
body serial number and chassis numbers tie up EXACTLY.
Yours is the only one (except the famous Mike Sherrell ) which does (and I
believe his may be suspect).
Thus the batch number is not a month because batch number one must have
started in September 1945 and was still running possibly at the time your car
was constructed. The batch could have lasted for 6 months or more. The fact
that the numbers tie up would indicate that at this stage bodies were being
produced roughly at the same rate as chassis - so there was some considerable
tie up.
I can't wait for more numbers. Have you got any other TCs!
Maybe there were a fixed number of car bodies in a batch?
Mike
I have just e-mailed a spreadsheet putting all the cars noted so far in a
spreadsheet. It is very inconclusive so far but your e-mail was fascinating.
I have been speculating along with Dean Jensen that the suffix of the body
serial number, in your case 1306 started with a month then a serial number
within the month.
Clausager says the suffix is a Morris Motor Bodies 'batch number' but does
not indicate how it is made up. In your case the month part of the number
would be 01 and the remainder (batch serial number) would be 306. The
circumstantial evidence suggests this rather than a batch number of 13 and a
serial number of 06.
This means that your body batch number is 1 and the serial 306 means your
body serial number and chassis numbers tie up EXACTLY.
Yours is the only one (except the famous Mike Sherrell ) which does (and I
believe his may be suspect).
Thus the batch number is not a month because batch number one must have
started in September 1945 and was still running possibly at the time your car
was constructed. The batch could have lasted for 6 months or more. The fact
that the numbers tie up would indicate that at this stage bodies were being
produced roughly at the same rate as chassis - so there was some considerable
tie up.
I can't wait for more numbers. Have you got any other TCs!
Maybe there were a fixed number of car bodies in a batch?
Mike
-
avanparys
- Posts: 4
- Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2000 6:35 pm
Re: body numbers
Gene,
Interesting. My 3452 was 65 TCs later than your 3387, but the body number
is 3263-A16840 vs your 3209 A16710. Numbers are close, but no set pattern.
- Terry V.P.
Interesting. My 3452 was 65 TCs later than your 3387, but the body number
is 3263-A16840 vs your 3209 A16710. Numbers are close, but no set pattern.
- Terry V.P.
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene Wescott
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2000 2:06 PM
Subject: [mg-tabc] Re:body numbers
> My 47 TC 3387 has body No. 3209A 16710
>
> Gene Wescott
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/mg-tabc
> http://www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
>
>
>
>
-
Chip Old
- Posts: 206
- Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2000 6:57 am
Re: body numbers
TC 6710 (October 1948)
Body Type B280
Body No. 6484 A 32487
--
Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271
Cub Hill, Maryland 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E
fold@bcpl.net
Body Type B280
Body No. 6484 A 32487
--
Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271
Cub Hill, Maryland 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E
fold@bcpl.net
-
Charles Hill
- Posts: 140
- Joined: Thu Nov 25, 1999 8:24 am
Re: body numbers
I'll throw my TCs numbers into the mess:
TC 0857 /XPAG1514 - don't have a body tag so no help. do have the
original wood piece with the number on it but will have to dig it out.
TC EXU 7387/XPAG7432 Body tag 7159 A 33167. Note that the engine number
and chassis number are not at the normal offset - I suspect that is
because the car is one of the first EXU's (7380 was the first). I also
suspect that the the body numbers will also not follow the normal
progression. I can only imagine what it must have been like on the
assembly line with so many changes for the EXU!
Regards,
Charles Hill
TC 0857 /XPAG1514 - don't have a body tag so no help. do have the
original wood piece with the number on it but will have to dig it out.
TC EXU 7387/XPAG7432 Body tag 7159 A 33167. Note that the engine number
and chassis number are not at the normal offset - I suspect that is
because the car is one of the first EXU's (7380 was the first). I also
suspect that the the body numbers will also not follow the normal
progression. I can only imagine what it must have been like on the
assembly line with so many changes for the EXU!
Regards,
Charles Hill
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