Re: Detective work on rear window photo

[PMS GB Ltd]

Message text written by "Michael Card"

>

Clive, Did you have any success in trying to scale that TC rear window
photo which I mailed ???<

MIke,

Yes, but only just had a chance to look at it this week - I used the same
perspective adjustments as for the earlier twin window hood that have stood
up to later actual measurements, but also had the benefit (?) of an MG
Factory drawing!!!!

Firstly then, thanks for the period mid-late 1940s photo of the TC with the
single window from which the later measurements are derived.

However there was a feeling in the back of my mind all through this thread
that I had real dimensions somewhere - and a hunt through my pile of
dimensional drawings of original TC body timbers produced a copy of the MG
works drawing No B 951 (MG TC Schematic - 1945) which is about 5foot by
3foot which shows the rear end of the TC with the hood erect! The drawing
is quarter scale and seems accurate in all its body dimensions that I
checked.

This drawing shows the back end of the TC with the twin window hood
erected, in side and rear elevation. Dimensions from this, and mine from
photos are below:-

The drawing shows the window widths at 13.5 inches (12.5 in photos), the
height at 4.5 inches (photo 4.0) and the centre strip is 2.5 inches wide
(photo 2.4). The radii of the centre corners and the lower bottom outer
corner all are the same at a bit over 1.25 inches (photo 1.5 inner and 1.75
outer), whilst the upper outer corner is much larger at 2.5inch radius
(photo 2.25) The top curve on the drawing looks far more prominent than in
photos.

Moving now onto the TC Photo of the single window car then, the drawing
shows the distance from rear body to hood frame as 17.5 inches (same as my
TB hood in fact) and this matches the photo. The window starts 3.5 inches
above the body, is 6 inches high, leaving 8.5 inches of material to the
hood frame ridge. The width was easily extrapolated from the photo, by
comparison with the fuel tank width, to be 23.5 inches. The corner radii
were all 1.5 inches. The photo gives no indication of how far in the
stitching was, but I'd guess two rows, the first just 1/8 to 1/4 inch in
from the material fold, the second about 3/4 inch from that row.

The differences between the factory drawings and the accurate measurements
from various photos just illustrates that whatever the drawings say about a
MMM or TABC, the reality will look very similar, but only exactly the same
by pure accident!

So I think we all know enough to make a window that is about the right size
plus or minus about 1/4 inch or so, and not to get too hung up about it -
and also not to fill the rear view mirror with a huge panoramic sheet of
see-through that looks absurd either.

Regards for now

Clive Sherriff

[Michael Card]

Clive My congratulations too, to add to those of Viv. Now I have the measurements I need to give to the man who is doing my new hood [single window, fawn colour] next month. I think that we should put your data [and the input from others who supplied dimensions] into a spreadsheet on the web-site with appropriate comments on who supplied the data and from what source. I think that your data would be the "gospel", but the measurements of Moss tops and others could be useful too, to indicate how close some of the commercial products are to your dimensions. [On this point I know that Nicola is going to measure his Collingburn top soon.] Would you like me to do this? If yes I will do it over the next day or two and send it to you for checking. Or you may prefer to do it. Either is OK for me. Thanks for your help in getting TC/8233 finished! Mike Card

----- Original Message ----- From: 100070.740@compuserve.com To: mike.card@mcmg.freeserve.co.uk ; mg-tabc@egroups.com Cc: 100070.740@compuserve.com Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 6:42 PM Subject: [mg-tabc] Detective work on rear window photo
Message text written by "Michael Card"
>
Clive, Did you have any success in trying to scale that TC rear window
photo which I mailed ???<

MIke,

Yes, but only just had a chance to look at it this week - I used the same
perspective adjustments as for the earlier twin window hood that have stood
up to later actual measurements, but also had the benefit (?) of an MG
Factory drawing!!!!

Firstly then, thanks for the period mid-late 1940s photo of the TC with the
single window from which the later measurements are derived.

However there was a feeling in the back of my mind all through this thread
that I had real dimensions somewhere - and a hunt through my pile of
dimensional drawings of original TC body timbers produced a copy of the MG
works drawing No B 951 (MG TC Schematic - 1945) which is about 5foot by
3foot which shows the rear end of the TC with the hood erect! The drawing
is quarter scale and seems accurate in all its body dimensions that I
checked.

This drawing shows the back end of the TC with the twin window hood
erected, in side and rear elevation. Dimensions from this, and mine from
photos are below:-

The drawing shows the window widths at 13.5 inches (12.5 in photos), the
height at 4.5 inches (photo 4.0) and the centre strip is 2.5 inches wide
(photo 2.4). The radii of the centre corners and the lower bottom outer
corner all are the same at a bit over 1.25 inches (photo 1.5 inner and 1.75
outer), whilst the upper outer corner is much larger at 2.5inch radius
(photo 2.25) The top curve on the drawing looks far more prominent than in
photos.

Moving now onto the TC Photo of the single window car then, the drawing
shows the distance from rear body to hood frame as 17.5 inches (same as my
TB hood in fact) and this matches the photo. The window starts 3.5 inches
above the body, is 6 inches high, leaving 8.5 inches of material to the
hood frame ridge. The width was easily extrapolated from the photo, by
comparison with the fuel tank width, to be 23.5 inches. The corner radii
were all 1.5 inches. The photo gives no indication of how far in the
stitching was, but I'd guess two rows, the first just 1/8 to 1/4 inch in
from the material fold, the second about 3/4 inch from that row.

The differences between the factory drawings and the accurate measurements
from various photos just illustrates that whatever the drawings say about a
MMM or TABC, the reality will look very similar, but only exactly the same
by pure accident!

So I think we all know enough to make a window that is about the right size
plus or minus about 1/4 inch or so, and not to get too hung up about it -
and also not to fill the rear view mirror with a huge panoramic sheet of
see-through that looks absurd either.

Regards for now

Clive Sherriff

[Bob and Carolyn Grunau]

Hi Michael and Clive,
I have an original tan canvas TC top that was carefully removed from a TC
during restoration. The top was then carefully de-stitched and used as a
pattern for a new top.
The rear window is still intact and I thought I would add my input to the
single window size question.
The window opening itself measures 5 3/4" high x 23" wide. However the
panel has been off the car for 10 or more years and so may have been
slightly larger when installed.
The inside seam holding the plastic is approx. 1/8" outside the window
opening and curves around to follow the window corner curves.
Window corner curves are 1 1/4" radius, all four.
Outer seam measures 7 3/8" x 24 1/2" and the seam is square at the corners,
ie does NOT follow the corner curves.

You have indicated a window size of approx. 6" x 23 1/2", this is very
close to the unstretched 5 3/4' x 23" I measure on my original top.
Hope this helps.
Bob

----------
From: Michael Card
To: PMS GB Ltd
Cc: MG-TABC list
Subject: [mg-tabc] Re: Detective work on rear window photo
Date: Thursday, February 17, 2000 1:59 AM

Clive

My congratulations too, to add to those of Viv. Now I have the
measurements I need to give to the man who is doing my new hood [single
window, fawn colour] next month.

I think that we should put your data [and the input from others who
supplied dimensions] into a spreadsheet on the web-site with appropriate
comments on who supplied the data and from what source. I think that your
data would be the "gospel", but the measurements of Moss tops and others
could be useful too, to indicate how close some of the commercial products
are to your dimensions. [On this point I know that Nicola is going to
measure his Collingburn top soon.]

Would you like me to do this? If yes I will do it over the next day or two
and send it to you for checking. Or you may prefer to do it. Either is OK
for me.

Thanks for your help in getting TC/8233 finished!

Mike Card

----- Original Message -----
From: PMS GB Ltd
To: Mike Card ; [unknown]
Cc: PMS GB Ltd
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2000 6:42 PM
Subject: [mg-tabc] Detective work on rear window photo


Message text written by "Michael Card"
>
Clive, Did you have any success in trying to scale that TC rear window
photo which I mailed ???<

MIke,

Yes, but only just had a chance to look at it this week - I used the same
perspective adjustments as for the earlier twin window hood that have
stood
up to later actual measurements, but also had the benefit (?) of an MG
Factory drawing!!!!

Firstly then, thanks for the period mid-late 1940s photo of the TC with
the
single window from which the later measurements are derived.

However there was a feeling in the back of my mind all through this
thread
that I had real dimensions somewhere - and a hunt through my pile of
dimensional drawings of original TC body timbers produced a copy of the
MG
works drawing No B 951 (MG TC Schematic - 1945) which is about 5foot by
3foot which shows the rear end of the TC with the hood erect! The drawing
is quarter scale and seems accurate in all its body dimensions that I
checked.

This drawing shows the back end of the TC with the twin window hood
erected, in side and rear elevation. Dimensions from this, and mine from
photos are below:-

The drawing shows the window widths at 13.5 inches (12.5 in photos), the
height at 4.5 inches (photo 4.0) and the centre strip is 2.5 inches wide
(photo 2.4). The radii of the centre corners and the lower bottom outer
corner all are the same at a bit over 1.25 inches (photo 1.5 inner and
1.75
outer), whilst the upper outer corner is much larger at 2.5inch radius
(photo 2.25) The top curve on the drawing looks far more prominent than
in
photos.

Moving now onto the TC Photo of the single window car then, the drawing
shows the distance from rear body to hood frame as 17.5 inches (same as
my
TB hood in fact) and this matches the photo. The window starts 3.5 inches
above the body, is 6 inches high, leaving 8.5 inches of material to the
hood frame ridge. The width was easily extrapolated from the photo, by
comparison with the fuel tank width, to be 23.5 inches. The corner radii
were all 1.5 inches. The photo gives no indication of how far in the
stitching was, but I'd guess two rows, the first just 1/8 to 1/4 inch in
from the material fold, the second about 3/4 inch from that row.

The differences between the factory drawings and the accurate
measurements
from various photos just illustrates that whatever the drawings say about
a
MMM or TABC, the reality will look very similar, but only exactly the
same
by pure accident!

So I think we all know enough to make a window that is about the right
size
plus or minus about 1/4 inch or so, and not to get too hung up about it -
and also not to fill the rear view mirror with a huge panoramic sheet of
see-through that looks absurd either.

Regards for now

Clive Sherriff



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