Wilsons Sandbox

Hi, all,
Fascinating thread you've got going. I can't help but wonder if MG might
have had MORE than ONE supplier of tops and sidecurtains, either
simultaneously, or over some period of time. If there were several
suppliers, this could account for some of the variations that are being found
and reported.
My TC, built in October 1948, was only 5 years old when I bought her, and
I've always believed that she had her original top at that time--there were
no signs of the top ever having been off the car, and the fabric of top and
curtains were identical (very light tan in colour, single layer [ie. not
laminated]). It was really tough stuff, and I used it for another two years
before a hurricane put a roof slate through it, necessitating its replacement
There was a single rear window, but I can't remember its dimensions. I
THINK its corners were radiused, (which is good practice to avoid tearing at
corners), but I can't be sure of my memory on that point.
Regards,
Carl Fritz

For the past ten days I have ploughed my way through pages of prose
regarding the correct size of the rear window on a TC. Colleagues have
stole out in the wee hours of the morning tape in hand, others have
studied photographs with the dedication of war time observers studying
possible rocket sites in Germany. Experts have come forth with
mathematical calculations proving with out any doubt that there estimate
is right and the other guys were wrong. In short, this storm in a very
small teacup has managed to take up all the available space, day by day
and now I fear week by week .
One simple fact that everyone in this ongoing debate seems to forget
is/was that none of these tops were made at Abingdon, they were
contracted out. I am aware of a least two local companies who made tops
for the Nuffield group. Tops for Sports cars, tops for tourers like the
new eight and ten H.P rag tops etc.
They were made to spec supplied by the factory however if one or two
were a touch "OFF SPEC" no one cared, the name of the game was get the
cars out of the factory as fast as you could, EXPORT OR DIE was the
motto of the day.
In this situation any top may well have an over size rear window or a
undersized one. These were produced on piece work, the more you made the
more you earned, a technique adopted from America by Lord Nuffield. The
cars were built the same way.
As I have said before through this excellent medium....these were
CHEAP...MASS PRODUCED..TOYS put to gether in primitive conditions to
earn overseas currency and make a profit for the company. No one ever
thought that they would last more than ten years, the resale price for a
TC and TD after a couple of years was about a third of its original cost
that's if you could find someone to buy it. In 1953 I had the choice of
a two year old Morries eight tourer and a new TD. like most other people
I went for the tourer, a better buy, better made and had a better resale
valve.
What was the size of the rear window?
Who knows and who cares!

Regards Geoff

Message text written by Geoffrey WHEATLEY

>Experts have come forth with

mathematical calculations proving with out any doubt that there estimate
is right and the other guys were wrong. In short, this storm in a very
small teacup has managed to take up all the available space, day by day
and now I fear week by week . <

>What was the size of the rear window?

Who knows and who cares!<

Well sorry to have bored you Geoff - but the point is if someone doesnt
try and get just something right - everyone will go fitting Datsun steering

boxes in the misguided impression they are original equipment!

Regards

Clive Sherriff

Clive the point is simple WE DON"T KNOW AND HAVE NO WAY OF FINDING OUT.
If there were specs issued by the Nuffield Group they have been long
lost in the dust of time.
It's the correct paint issue all over again when you ran out of green or
blue or what ever you took what ever was available from another line.
These hoods came from various suppliers for various cars and as they
were not produced by a computer controlled machine there were individual
I.e one could be different from the other simply because it was 4,30
with 30 minutes to quiting time, or a Friday afternoon last batch to
make up the quoter for the week.

You are or should be, more than aware of my views on Japanise junk being
inserted into classic cars so I think that comment was uncalled for.
Asfar as future owners worrying over a quarter inch difference on their
rear window, the situation resolves it's self, By then the vast..and
mean vast, majority will have replacement tops made by Moss or some
other company .
Finally, I was not bored to use your unfriendly term, just trying to
bring a touch of reality to this pointless discussion. POINTLESS BECAUSE
THERE IS NO conclusive answer.

Regards Geoff

Message text written by Geoffrey WHEATLEY

>Clive the point is simple WE DON"T KNOW AND HAVE NO WAY OF FINDING OUT.
>If there were specs issued by the Nuffield Group they have been long
>lost in the dust of time.
>It's the correct paint issue all over again when you ran out of green or
>blue or what ever you took what ever was available from another line.
>These hoods came from various suppliers for various cars and as they
>were not produced by a computer controlled machine there were individual
>I.e one could be different from the other simply because it was 4,30
>with 30 minutes to quiting time, or a Friday afternoon last batch to
>make up the quoter for the week.

>You are or should be, more than aware of my views on Japanise junk being
>inserted into classic cars so I think that comment was uncalled for.
>Asfar as future owners worrying over a quarter inch difference on their
>rear window, the situation resolves it's self, By then the vast..and
>mean vast, majority will have replacement tops made by Moss or some
>other company .
>Finally, I was not bored to use your unfriendly term, just trying to
>bring a touch of reality to this pointless discussion. POINTLESS BECAUSE
>THERE IS NO conclusive answer.<

Hi Geoff,

I agree, mostly - all we can do is to explore the limits of original
dimensions
and establish the compromise median.

I agree on the the differences found. For example, I've taken many TCs
apart
over the years, and the woodwork dimensions vary widly (wildly?) from car
to car.
Height above the wheel arch by as much as half an inch, for example, on
a 3inch-ish dimension! But if I were to build a body again now I do know
the
limits within which to keep as I've the dimensional records of all these
body
timbers to hand.

My point remains that exploring these undocumented limits is worthwhile -
take the acclain and usefulness of "TCs Forever" -was that a waste of time
and effort to produce? Despite my 40 years of MGT ownership and
restoration
work I still end up diving into some past reference work for detail
occasionally.

The replacement parts market is another matter. We are all dependent on the

magnificent efforts which go into producing spares for our cars - but every

once in a while there's an absolute dog of a part that comes out - wrong
dimensions - wrong materials - wrong finish - and I guess we do need to be
able to "police" which are the bad parts. Often the supplier is unaware of
the
mistake. As you say there are few original blueprints left.

But I still dont believe it's pointless - there is now a reference for our
paint
colours for example, we might know that a 3 foot by 1 foot rear windor was
never original (or does any one know of one?) and we do know about the
right
size and shape to make an original looking double window hood.

By this point even I'm getting bored with what I'm writing (!!!G) so thanks

for your input Geoff and others, and as a parting comment on the subject -
just a reminder that you can't see a bloody thing out the back of an
original
two pane TC hood window!

All the best till next time,

Clive Sherriff

Clive...Good Morning.

Now I know why we
have a similar attitude to pointless research!
Your ar a Oxford man and so am I!
Born a couple miles from the plant in the swinging town, well it is now,
of Horsepath, Went to school at Temple Cowley, you don't get much closer
to Nuffield than that. Boy scout at St James ended up at London
University with a brief stay at Nuffield college etc.
Been playing with MG's since I was ten, dad worked for MG from 1935 to
61 then got a real job looking after a pub...an Oxford pub I hasten to
add.
I have a few treasurers like a 33 J2..MGTC number twenty off the line in
September 45. 1950 TD my work horse and I love it. A 63 Austin Healey
with 38,000 miles on the clock. 67 Boatail Alfa Romeo (Restored for the
wife but I won't let her drive it!) 1967 Morgan NICE...NICE CAR. The 29
Singer that I have already mentioned and a 57 MGA Coupe that is in my
garage in a state of distress. I purchased it to restore again for you
know who but the Morgan came a along and that was that for the moment
Like you I have cut a few fingers on other MG restorations, completed
then them sold in order to buy a more exciting challenge it's all a
question of supply and demand. Money I mean!
I think Sherrell did an outstanding job with TC Forever but even he knew
when to give up on a lost cause as illustrated by the rear window
question. MY TC has the two small...useless holes in the rear that any
self respecting owner who wanted to stay alive in twenty first century
traffic would tear out tomorrow. However, Not us for all the reasons
stated but if they should or should not be a half inch larger...I HAVE
TO SAY IT.... SO WHAT!

Regards Geoff