Wilsons Sandbox

I got a call today from Fred Troyan (email FPTroyan@aol.com) who was unaware
of our T-ABC program. He told me that he owns TC 6488, a "best of show car"
and "one of only three known to have matching numbers" (I think he was
referring to engine and chassis numbers). Has anyone heard of the three cars
with engine and chassis numbers that match?

Jim Shade, West Covina CA

PS I invited Fred to join us, but haven't heard from him yet.


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One of our members responded directly to me - thought I'd pass it on:

Maybe the "matching numbers" statement is too simplistic. I know of quite a

few cars with matching numbers including my TC1415 with the original body
plate in the passenger footwell. Just check the mg-tabc members list for
more examples.

The earliest TCs only had engine number plates attached. Later Tcs (don't
know cut off number" also had the engine number stamped directly on the
casting a bit below the number plate. A sobering event when the owner of
what was thought to be a car with matching numbers rubs off the paint only
to find some other number stamped into the casting.

Perhaps your friend was segmenting out "best in show" cars with matching
numbers. I think anyone with the resources to produce a "best in show" can
easily make the numbers match so as to be indistinguishable from an
original. Check out page 196 in "Tcs Forever" and you will see Mike
Sherrell attaching a number plate to an engine.

Jim Shade, West Covina CA





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Jim-
I think the fellow with the matching numbers cars should define 'matching numbers'.
Some manufacturers use the same chassis and engine block number (the Corvette comes to mind) to show the engine is the same one that it left the factory with. Norton and Triumph motorcycles also did this, but Royal Enfield did not- They just married the next available engine to the next frame coming down the line, much like our T-series. Generally, we have around 720 or so number in between frames and engine numbers. a true 'matching number' TC would mean an engine that hung around for 700 or so cars to get built before it got married to a frame. It would be possible, and interesting, for this to happen but probably not anything else. The 'real' engine numer (as noted previously) in stamped into the block on later cars, and a true representation.
I once had the very last Norton built in 1967. Interesting, and it didnt show any early celebrations by its build quality!
Regards
Mark TC8126

----- Original Message -----
From: FDShade@aol.com
To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:43 PM
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Matching numbers


One of our members responded directly to me - thought I'd pass it on:

Maybe the "matching numbers" statement is too simplistic. I know of quite a

few cars with matching numbers including my TC1415 with the original body
plate in the passenger footwell. Just check the mg-tabc members list for
more examples.

The earliest TCs only had engine number plates attached. Later Tcs (don't
know cut off number" also had the engine number stamped directly on the
casting a bit below the number plate. A sobering event when the owner of
what was thought to be a car with matching numbers rubs off the paint only
to find some other number stamped into the casting.

Perhaps your friend was segmenting out "best in show" cars with matching
numbers. I think anyone with the resources to produce a "best in show" can
easily make the numbers match so as to be indistinguishable from an
original. Check out page 196 in "Tcs Forever" and you will see Mike
Sherrell attaching a number plate to an engine.

Jim Shade, West Covina CA





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Yahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A lot depends on the definition of "matching numbers." I've always
taken the term to mean that the numbers match the original factory
numbers. I've never taken it to mean that the engine number and car
number literally match (unless thats the way it came from the factory).
I've never seen a TC with engine number and chassis numbers closer than
my car, TC(EXU)7387 with XPAG7432, a difference of only 45. I've never
given it much thought, considering an anomaly probably due to this being
one of the first EXUs. I would imagine that these first EXUs didn't
exactly follow the standard production flow. And it is the original
block - 7432 is stamped into the block just below the brass tag. Don't
know how long that will be true though. It was rebuilt shortly before I
bought the car almost 10 years ago with a .030 under crank and .060 over
pistons. The next rebuild is going to be expensive - probably need a
new crank and sleeve back to standard.

Regards,
Charles Hill

Mark McCombs wrote:

>Jim-
>I think the fellow with the matching numbers cars should define 'matching numbers'.
>Some manufacturers use the same chassis and engine block number (the Corvette comes to mind) to show the engine is the same one that it left the factory with. Norton and Triumph motorcycles also did this, but Royal Enfield did not- They just married the next available engine to the next frame coming down the line, much like our T-series. Generally, we have around 720 or so number in between frames and engine numbers. a true 'matching number' TC would mean an engine that hung around for 700 or so cars to get built before it got married to a frame. It would be possible, and interesting, for this to happen but probably not anything else. The 'real' engine numer (as noted previously) in stamped into the block on later cars, and a true representation.
>I once had the very last Norton built in 1967. Interesting, and it didnt show any early celebrations by its build quality!
>Regards
>Mark TC8126
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: FDShade@aol.com
> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Saturday, September 03, 2005 2:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Matching numbers
>
>
> One of our members responded directly to me - thought I'd pass it on:
>
> Maybe the "matching numbers" statement is too simplistic. I know of quite a
>
> few cars with matching numbers including my TC1415 with the original body
> plate in the passenger footwell. Just check the mg-tabc members list for
> more examples.
>
> The earliest TCs only had engine number plates attached. Later Tcs (don't
> know cut off number" also had the engine number stamped directly on the
> casting a bit below the number plate. A sobering event when the owner of
> what was thought to be a car with matching numbers rubs off the paint only
> to find some other number stamped into the casting.
>
> Perhaps your friend was segmenting out "best in show" cars with matching
> numbers. I think anyone with the resources to produce a "best in show" can
> easily make the numbers match so as to be indistinguishable from an
> original. Check out page 196 in "Tcs Forever" and you will see Mike
> Sherrell attaching a number plate to an engine.
>
> Jim Shade, West Covina CA
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

There are car manufactures those who produced major part of their own. (
M.Benz in Germany) There are some assemblers as I may call, ordering all
most all parts according to the situation some where. Just in time delivery
of tyres is a good example now a days. The tyres mounted on rims according
to the order delivered just in time so that the it can be assembled on the
vehicle. Even the complete door or dash board with instruments are delivered
by some other company.

In case of MG TC the motor came from Morris. No Vehicle producer got their
own tyre or battery production. Now Mercedes Benz got their own battery. I
do not believe that they make it. So there were companies who had their ego
to produce major part of the vehicle.

Now in case of the TC they had to depend on the motor delivery from Morris.
Before assembly, they may check up the engine. In case of damage they sent
it back or do minor repair locally. Because of this the Engine number can
never be like chassis number. In the MG factory they have the chassis
stamped one after the other. I do not think that the engine number was
stamped by MG. It is dome by Morris. I do not know how the Lucas parts were
delivered and assembled.
So in my humble opinion that the matching numbers only refer to the numbers
originally given from the MG factory. No one in the MG factory had so much
of time to sit like me and make philosophy of the engine, chassis and body
number combination. The production had to go fast so that money could flow
in to the cash register.

This month we do have the IAA in Frankfurt. I do not know what they worry
about ? the $100 a barrel raw oil ? the world pollution ? or the Engine
power ? or the beautiful body shape ? There are lot of article about the new
development.
But We had to stick strict to our old MG TC body/engine/chassis number.

Madhu

Bad Soden.

-----Urspr ngliche Nachricht-----
Von: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag
von Charles Hill
Gesendet: Sonntag, 4. September 2005 05:33
An: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Betreff: Re: [mg-tabc] Matching numbers


A lot depends on the definition of "matching numbers." I've always
taken the term to mean that the numbers match the original factory
numbers. I've never taken it to mean that the engine number and car
number literally match (unless thats the way it came from the factory).
I've never seen a TC with engine number and chassis numbers closer than
my car, TC(EXU)7387 with XPAG7432, a difference of only 45. I've never
given it much thought, considering an anomaly probably due to this being
one of the first EXUs. I would imagine that these first EXUs didn't
exactly follow the standard production flow. And it is the original
block - 7432 is stamped into the block just below the brass tag. Don't
know how long that will be true though. It was rebuilt shortly before I
bought the car almost 10 years ago with a .030 under crank and .060 over
pistons. The next rebuild is going to be expensive - probably need a
new crank and sleeve back to standard.

Regards,
Charles Hill

I had visited the MG factory in 1977 and it was explained to me that
about that time there was some discord between the engine builders in
Birmingham and either Abingdon specifically or Leyland in particular but that the
engine builders were leaving core (freeze out) plugs loose, so that once the
assembly line guys had installed the engine and had all cooling lines hooked up
and the coolant was installed the plug would pop out causing the car to have
the fitted engine removed and the next in line to be installed causing a delay
and since there were a couple of guys under the car hooking up things they
would have a coolant shower. On cars other than T types ( after the merger with
Austin) the tag on the firewall had the chassis number and under engine number
the tag reads "See Engine" It is conjecture on my part but perhaps the T type
chassis tag was stamped after the engine was fitted so it made no matter which
engine was used in the line up of awaiting units, and that the numbering was
done after fitting by the fellows on the line and not by some fellow up in the
office.

Joe

Joe


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Would not "Matching numbers" mean that the engine numbers match on the ones
stamped on the Identification plate on the firewall.

Joe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joe wrote:

>Would not "Matching numbers" mean that the engine numbers match on the ones

stamped on the Identification plate on the firewall.

Joe<

This has been digitaldon's presumption from the beginning (whatever that
is)................................

Don
TC 7993

Hate to disappoint the owner of TC 6488, but according to the factory record the original engine number was XPAG 7157. Perhaps he meant the numbers match the documentation, ie it still has the original engine, in which case it's one of thousands, not three!

There may be the odd car whose chassis/engine numbers are the same; I couldn't see any on the list, but the old eyes get a bit crossed after the first few hundred...

Stewart Penfound
TA 2146, Lester H0031, Brighton, UK
TABC Registrar, MGCC T Register




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About 4 or 5 years ago, three members of the list (Dean Jensen, Mike Marjot, Roger Furneaux) were in the process of compiling a spreadsheet of original chassis, engine and body numbers. The spreadsheet included almost all TC's, TB's, TA's(?) and some Tickfords.
The Excel Spreadsheet that Mike sent me was so comprehensive that I was able to determine the missing portions of the Body Number on my TC based on the data. A quick look at the spreadsheet shows that Bert Dive's TC 6316 is not listed. Maybe this is the opportunity to update the spreadsheet.
Mark Stolzenburg
St. Louis, Missouri
TC 7812

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