Wilsons Sandbox

FW: Tire aging bombshell could cause harmMore information on ageing tires....although not good for us, the tire users. BTW, the new tubes don't really effect the ageing of tires, except to hold air in old tires. The structure still fails. See below for scary "gubmint" stuff. Best, Ray To: 1939mgtb@comcast.net Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2005 8:48 AM Subject: FW: Tire aging bombshell could cause harm An interesting tire ageing perspective. Mike By Harold Herzlich Rubber & Plastics News Technical Editor I want to address the world of tire safety and how certain aspects of the TREAD Act may or already are interacting with the real world of tire safety. The Transportation Recall Enhancement, Accountability and Documentation Act may not achieve its intended safety-related purpose. It already may be activating the dreaded "Law of Unintended Consequences." For most, buying or maintaining tires is not a happy event. Many consider it a major expense and an inconvenience that can be delayed, or can be an annoying "dirty your knees" procedure. An important aspect of tire safety has always been the affordability and easy accessibility of new replacement tires by size and performance ratings. Sets of new tires still can be purchased for less than the cost of designer sneakers. Despite these industry achievements, it is disturbingly common for tires of unknown service history and damage to find their way from yard sales, scrapped vehicles and junk piles onto vehicles. The real world of tire durability is complex and includes this large marginal population. Perhaps even a larger questionable population is generated by new tires that have been exposed to a wide range of conditions that cause excessive deflection (distortion and internal heat generation) which accelerates oxidative and thermal degradation. (No- tice the term "age" is not used). The 1 billion tires successfully running on the road (about 3 trillion miles per year) attests to the safety and reliability of tires. Tire safety is affected by affordability. The conservative estimated net cost of the new FMVSS 139 by the Center for Regulatory Effectiveness is about $5 billion, which can be expected to be passed onto the consumer. The TREAD Act, even with its more demanding test requirements, will not result in a massive reduction of unreliable tires on the road. It s probable the higher cost of tires will cause an increase in the population of marginal, "end of service life" or damaged tires. Tire aging is the current hot-button tire performance issue as the rulemaking process enters its final stages. Aging is not a proper description for the tire weakening processes. Aging limits cannot be all-inclusive and justified by perceived dangers. They require scientifically proven tire performance deficien- cies caused by specific conditions (i.e., inflated vs. uninflated, static vs. dynamic, etc.). Oxidation is the proper chemical description for the tire weakening process. Most elastomers used in tires oxidize over time, but the rate and the degree are very dependent upon the chemistry of the materials, the tire usage history and the service environment. Chronological age can be misleading since it doesn t address chemical kinetics variability within the materials and laminated structures. To use chronological age as the basis for relegating a tire to the scrap pile makes no chemical sense. I would expect DOE and EPA people to take positions of interest since the scrapping of good tires represents about 8 wasted gallons of oil, as well as overburdened landfills being stressed with a non-biodegradable, combustible material. To put a chronological age limit on tires that are properly stored for two to four years before application is not a scientifically proven necessity. This will certainly cause an economic and logistic disruption to a finely tuned, rapid response, international distribution system that is an important part of the tire safety equation. Besides the consumer having to absorb higher distribution cost burdens, the timely replacement of marginal tires also would become more inconvenient because of a more limited availability of the correct tires. Dealers would have to maintain low inventories to minimize the number of "older" tires in the store and the potential added costs of dated tire rejections by the customer. The economy of scale for tire makers also would be compromised with shorter production runs needed to maintain minimal inventories. Consideration of alternatives to the proposed rule making that won t cause the collateral tire safety damage would include a more concentrated effort to make tire rotation (including the full size spare) an important safety responsibility assigned to the motorist. Tires would wear out and be removed in a more predictable and uniform manner. I also suggest revisiting the proposal to raise the mandated 2/32 height of wear-out indicators. This would yield a variety of safety benefits besides giving more localized wear-out safety margins during the final months of a tire s service life. Also, federally mandated placement of the wear-out indicators should be modified for radial tire wear patterns so as to be placed over the more vulnerable belt edge area where many over-deflection separations initiate. High-purity nitrogen already is starting to make its evolutionary contribution to tire maintenance. State-of-the-art, high-purity nitrogen inflation (>95 percent actually in the tire) is now practical with new compact and economical generators that would complement already proven and critical tire maintenance procedures. More conversation and thought (and delay) is warranted before tire aging and dating standards become a mandated requirement. Science doesn t respond to legislative timetables or to special interest groups making the most noise. Common sense tells us there are easier, more meaningful, less disruptive, less complex and certainly, less costly things available to improve tire reliability. We all want to make the roads safer. Let s keep things in perspective as we consider expensive, disruptive and possibly harmful rules and protocols. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

FW: Tire aging bombshell could cause harmThought you guys who wonder why some of us use nitrogen as an inflation gas might find this of interest..... Best, Ray "Spes mea in Deo est"

----- Original Message ----- By Harold Herzlich Rubber & Plastics News Technical Editor I want to address the world of tire safety and how certain aspects of the TREAD Act may or already are interacting with the real world of tire safety. The Transportation Recall Enhancement, Accountability and Documentation Act may not achieve its intended safety-related purpose. It already may be activating the dreaded "Law of Unintended Consequences." For most, buying or maintaining tires is not a happy event. Many consider it a major expense and an inconvenience that can be delayed, or can be an annoying "dirty your knees" procedure. An important aspect of tire safety has always been the affordability and easy accessibility of new replacement tires by size and performance ratings. Sets of new tires still can be purchased for less than the cost of designer sneakers. Despite these industry achievements, it is disturbingly common for tires of unknown service history and damage to find their way from yard sales, scrapped vehicles and junk piles onto vehicles. The real world of tire durability is complex and includes this large marginal population. Perhaps even a larger questionable population is generated by new tires that have been exposed to a wide range of conditions that cause excessive deflection (distortion and internal heat generation) which accelerates oxidative and thermal degradation. (No- tice the term "age" is not used). The 1 billion tires successfully running on the road (about 3 trillion miles per year) attests to the safety and reliability of tires. Tire safety is affected by affordability. The conservative estimated net cost of the new FMVSS 139 by the Center for Regulatory Effectiveness is about $5 billion, which can be expected to be passed onto the consumer. The TREAD Act, even with its more demanding test requirements, will not result in a massive reduction of unreliable tires on the road. It s probable the higher cost of tires will cause an increase in the population of marginal, "end of service life" or damaged tires. Tire aging is the current hot-button tire performance issue as the rulemaking process enters its final stages. Aging is not a proper description for the tire weakening processes. Aging limits cannot be all-inclusive and justified by perceived dangers. They require scientifically proven tire performance deficien- cies caused by specific conditions (i.e., inflated vs. uninflated, static vs. dynamic, etc.). Oxidation is the proper chemical description for the tire weakening process. Most elastomers used in tires oxidize over time, but the rate and the degree are very dependent upon the chemistry of the materials, the tire usage history and the service environment. Chronological age can be misleading since it doesn t address chemical kinetics variability within the materials and laminated structures. To use chronological age as the basis for relegating a tire to the scrap pile makes no chemical sense. I would expect DOE and EPA people to take positions of interest since the scrapping of good tires represents about 8 wasted gallons of oil, as well as overburdened landfills being stressed with a non-biodegradable, combustible material. To put a chronological age limit on tires that are properly stored for two to four years before application is not a scientifically proven necessity. This will certainly cause an economic and logistic disruption to a finely tuned, rapid response, international distribution system that is an important part of the tire safety equation. Besides the consumer having to absorb higher distribution cost burdens, the timely replacement of marginal tires also would become more inconvenient because of a more limited availability of the correct tires. Dealers would have to maintain low inventories to minimize the number of "older" tires in the store and the potential added costs of dated tire rejections by the customer. The economy of scale for tire makers also would be compromised with shorter production runs needed to maintain minimal inventories. Consideration of alternatives to the proposed rule making that won t cause the collateral tire safety damage would include a more concentrated effort to make tire rotation (including the full size spare) an important safety responsibility assigned to the motorist. Tires would wear out and be removed in a more predictable and uniform manner. I also suggest revisiting the proposal to raise the mandated 2/32 height of wear-out indicators. This would yield a variety of safety benefits besides giving more localized wear-out safety margins during the final months of a tire s service life. Also, federally mandated placement of the wear-out indicators should be modified for radial tire wear patterns so as to be placed over the more vulnerable belt edge area where many over-deflection separations initiate. High-purity nitrogen already is starting to make its evolutionary contribution to tire maintenance. State-of-the-art, high-purity nitrogen inflation (>95 percent actually in the tire) is now practical with new compact and economical generators that would complement already proven and critical tire maintenance procedures. More conversation and thought (and delay) is warranted before tire aging and dating standards become a mandated requirement. Science doesn t respond to legislative timetables or to special interest groups making the most noise. Common sense tells us there are easier, more meaningful, less disruptive, less complex and certainly, less costly things available to improve tire reliability. We all want to make the roads safer. Let s keep things in perspective as we consider expensive, disruptive and possibly harmful rules and protocols. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Ray, All most all local tyre dealers are offering SF 6 ( Supherhexafloride) to inflate the tyres. Not Nitrogen. The raw latex is first treated with sulphur to make rubber sheet out of it. Is the aging bombshell of TC and nitrogen is enough to make a Nitrogen bomb ???????? Madhu -----Urspr ngliche Nachricht----- Von: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von 1939mgtb Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. September 2005 03:40 An: mgtabc Betreff: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm FW: Tire aging bombshell could cause harmThought you guys who wonder why some of us use nitrogen as an inflation gas might find this of interest..... Best, Ray "Spes mea in Deo est"

FYI -- SF6 is one of the most potent destroyers of the ozone layer and is on fast track to be phased out. I believe it would be irresponsible to promote the use of SF6 for something like tire protection. Art -----Original Message----- From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paroor Sent: September 28, 2005 2:37 AM To: 1939mgtb; mgtabc Subject: AW: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm Hi Ray, All most all local tyre dealers are offering SF 6 ( Supherhexafloride) to inflate the tyres. Not Nitrogen. The raw latex is first treated with sulphur to make rubber sheet out of it. Is the aging bombshell of TC and nitrogen is enough to make a Nitrogen bomb ???????? Madhu -----Urspr ngliche Nachricht----- Von: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von 1939mgtb Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. September 2005 03:40 An: mgtabc Betreff: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm FW: Tire aging bombshell could cause harmThought you guys who wonder why some of us use nitrogen as an inflation gas might find this of interest..... Best, Ray "Spes mea in Deo est" Yahoo! Groups Links

Nitrogen would be a better way to go...... Best, Ray "Spes mea in Deo est"

----- Original Message ----- From: "Art FitzGerald" artfitz@sympatico.ca> To: "'Paroor'" paroor@t-online.de>; "'1939mgtb'" 1939mgtb@comcast.net>; "'mgtabc'" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 4:52 AM Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm FYI -- SF6 is one of the most potent destroyers of the ozone layer and is on fast track to be phased out. I believe it would be irresponsible to promote the use of SF6 for something like tire protection. Art -----Original Message----- From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paroor Sent: September 28, 2005 2:37 AM To: 1939mgtb; mgtabc Subject: AW: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm Hi Ray, All most all local tyre dealers are offering SF 6 ( Supherhexafloride) to inflate the tyres. Not Nitrogen. The raw latex is first treated with sulphur to make rubber sheet out of it. Is the aging bombshell of TC and nitrogen is enough to make a Nitrogen bomb ???????? Madhu -----Urspr ngliche Nachricht----- Von: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von 1939mgtb Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. September 2005 03:40 An: mgtabc Betreff: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm FW: Tire aging bombshell could cause harmThought you guys who wonder why some of us use nitrogen as an inflation gas might find this of interest..... Best, Ray "Spes mea in Deo est" Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Fritz, Did you ever open your XPAG tappet cover and had a look at the deposits there ? The pail colour dots seen often are nothing but the rest of sulphur Combination. That is why we change the oil in fall of XPAG before keeping it in the garage for winter sleep. The sulphur is used every where in so many form. Even for cleaning the wine bottle. At high temperature it will combine with oxygen and other gases in different form. If you care about the environment that much, better we stop driving the XPAG. Madhu -----Urspr ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Art FitzGerald [mailto:artfitz@sympatico.ca] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. September 2005 11:52 An: 'Paroor'; '1939mgtb'; 'mgtabc' Betreff: RE: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm FYI -- SF6 is one of the most potent destroyers of the ozone layer and is on fast track to be phased out. I believe it would be irresponsible to promote the use of SF6 for something like tire protection. Art

the most common reson to use nitrogen to fill tires is to provide extreramly accurate milage measurements for rallies-unlike air the nitrogen doesn't expand and contract with temperature so the tire size stays constant-i have never known of an old tire exploding-and i am talking about vintage car rallies-as the resuly of nitrogen.

>From: "Art FitzGerald" artfitz@sympatico.ca> >Reply-To: artfitz@sympatico.ca> >To: "'Paroor'" paroor@t-online.de>,"'1939mgtb'" >1939mgtb@comcast.net>,"'mgtabc'" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm >Date: Wed, 28 Sep 2005 05:52:05 -0400 > >FYI -- SF6 is one of the most potent destroyers of the ozone layer and is >on >fast track to be phased out. I believe it would be irresponsible to promote >the use of SF6 for something like tire protection. > >Art > > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of >Paroor >Sent: September 28, 2005 2:37 AM >To: 1939mgtb; mgtabc >Subject: AW: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm > >Hi Ray, > All most all local tyre dealers are offering SF 6 ( >Supherhexafloride) to inflate the tyres. Not Nitrogen. The raw latex is >first treated with sulphur to make rubber sheet out of it. > >Is the aging bombshell of TC and nitrogen is enough to make a Nitrogen bomb >???????? > >Madhu > > >-----Urspr ngliche Nachricht----- >Von: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com]Im Auftrag von >1939mgtb >Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. September 2005 03:40 >An: mgtabc >Betreff: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm > > >FW: Tire aging bombshell could cause harmThought you guys who wonder why >some of us use nitrogen as an inflation gas might find this of >interest..... >Best, >Ray >"Spes mea in Deo est" > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Not to belabour the subject but it's not the sulfur that's the problem; it's the fluoride. More than 36 years in environmental consulting have provided me ample opportunity to be concerned for old mother earth. Heck I've been driving a Prius for a year and a half now -- radically different from the TA technology. Best. Art FitzGerald -----Original Message----- From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Paroor Sent: September 28, 2005 3:59 PM To: artfitz@sympatico.ca; '1939mgtb'; 'mgtabc' Subject: AW: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm Hi Fritz, Did you ever open your XPAG tappet cover and had a look at the deposits there ? The pail colour dots seen often are nothing but the rest of sulphur Combination. That is why we change the oil in fall of XPAG before keeping it in the garage for winter sleep. The sulphur is used every where in so many form. Even for cleaning the wine bottle. At high temperature it will combine with oxygen and other gases in different form. If you care about the environment that much, better we stop driving the XPAG. Madhu -----Urspr ngliche Nachricht----- Von: Art FitzGerald [mailto:artfitz@sympatico.ca] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. September 2005 11:52 An: 'Paroor'; '1939mgtb'; 'mgtabc' Betreff: RE: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm FYI -- SF6 is one of the most potent destroyers of the ozone layer and is on fast track to be phased out. I believe it would be irresponsible to promote the use of SF6 for something like tire protection. Art Yahoo! Groups Links

Nitrogen - as a gas - will expand with increasing temperature and its behaviour is subject to exactly the same laws of physics as air, of which it is a major component. Regards, Robin Montgomery _________________________________ -----Original Message----- From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of sara e jenkins Sent: Wednesday, September 28, 2005 4:07 PM To: artfitz@sympatico.ca; paroor@t-online.de; 1939mgtb@comcast.net; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm the most common reson to use nitrogen to fill tires is to provide extreramly accurate milage measurements for rallies-unlike air the nitrogen doesn't expand and contract with temperature so the tire size stays constant-i have never known of an old tire exploding-and i am talking about vintage car rallies-as the resuly of nitrogen.

Robin, Nitrogen, like any other gas is subject to expansion with increasing temperature but not to the same extent as air (which is primarily nitrogen, oxygen and CO2). Within the temperature range that a tire operates, especially a racing tire under race conditions, there will be very little change in pressure or rolling diameter of a nitrogen filled tire compared to the same tire filled with air under the same conditions. The use of nitrogen in tires was common with rally cars and competition cars in the 50s and 60s and by serious amateur TSD rallyist. This was before the era of the steel belted radial tires when bias ply tires were used. Bias ply tires are more prone to expand and contract with temperature changes when filled with air. There is an article written by OC Ritch for Sports Car Graphic in 1959 in which he recounts the experience of driving one of the Sebring Sprites in the company of Leon Mandel (the late publisher and editor of AutoWeek) driving a Sebring MGA coupe from Sebring to California for Jack Flaherty after the '59 race. He mentions that they really appreciated that the Dunlop race tires on the cars were filled with nitrogen when they crossed the south western deserts and they didn't have to adjust the tire pressures when traveling in 100+ daytime heat and 50 degree night time temps. As far as tires bursting, presumably from over pressurization due to heat expansion, a nitrogen filled tire would be far less susceptible to this than a similar tire filled with air. As far as explosion risks are concerned, nitrogen gas does not support combustion while pure oxygen and, to a lesser extent, air does. So don't light up a smoke while in an oxygen tent but that's not a problem in air because air is 80% nitrogen. -- Frank < frankgraham@msn.com > ______________________

----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Montgomery" RMontgomery@doriandrake.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 12:56 AM Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] Tire aging bombshell could cause harm > Nitrogen - as a gas - will expand with increasing temperature and its > behaviour is subject to exactly the same laws of physics as air, of which it > is a major component. > > > Regards, > > Robin Montgomery > _________________________________