Brake failure

[John Kallend]

The bulk modulus of water is 2.15 GPa. For all practical purposes in a braking system it is incompressible.. Most commercial hydraulic fluids are in the same ballpark. _____________________________John KallendProfessor EmeritusDepartment of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace EngineeringDepartment of PhysicsIIT, Chicago

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 7:34 AM, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: [u][/u] [u][/u] Duncan, No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab. Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid. You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact. Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam). Could be fun though, because if it did and produced oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen Then the brake system may well explode ! Clive = ============================== === ----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] morelists@yahoo.com+[mg-tabc] [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .----------------------------- --------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston [img]https://ec.yimg.com/ec?url=http%3A%2F%2Fstatic.avast.com%2Femails%2Favast-mail-stamp.png&t=1522511313&sig=KuTH4iwEXQcDOUYZ9uUhbA--~D[/img] This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

[Norman Verona]

Steve, I agree. However the report said the pedal was hard one day and no brakes at all the next. A master cylinder with mixed air and fluid will give a spongy pedal which will pump up to hard is pumped. However a cylinder which is completely empty will have a pedal which goes to the floor and will not pump up.

 

Do you disagree?

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] Stephen D Stierman [mailto:morgan7709@sbcglobal.net] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 12:19 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com>; 'Steve S' mail@mgnuts.com>; 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

Not so Norman,

As Steve points out and I have found personally, enough air entering via wheel cylinder(s) and a bit of loss at the same place, will cause a peddle to become softer over time, eventually causing brake actuation to become almost nil.

Steve TC2911

 

From: "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] 'Steve S' mail@mgnuts.com>; 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:25 AM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

Steve, the point is the OP said there was no signs of a leak. To get total brake failure the master cylinder must empty completely. And to get sudden total failure the leak must be substantial. I have suggested that before going for the unusual, with the master cylinder the wheel cylinders and the brake pipes are inspected. It would appear we are talking a substantial leak so it should be clearly visible.

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 09:25 [b]To:[/b] 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

It takes very little air to cause massive brake fade.  When you bleed the brakes, each pump yields a lot of fluid with a small amount of bubbles.  However the brakes go from soft to firm.  If you somehow had enough air coming in from below to displace 3/4" of fluid in the cylinder and overflow it, you'd probably completely empty all four cylinders and half of the hard lines!

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

 

On 2/6/2017 11:49 PM, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] wrote:

 

Steve,

 

In which case the fluid would be overflowing from the master.

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 02:48 [b]To:[/b] MG tabcgroups MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

Agreed.  Air can definitely come in past the wheel cylinder cups.  No leak necessary.  If the master cylinder returns faster than the brake shoes, air can be pulled in.  Ensure the brake springs are all in correct working condition to prevent it from happening.

- Steve Simmons, TC8975

 

On 2/6/2017 5:26 PM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

 

I had a continual problems with air entering the braking system, likely comi! ng via wheel cylinder(s) that may have been seeping slightly, don't discard that end of the system as the problem.  Bleeding would result in a hard peddle that over time would become softer in use.

Steve TC2911

 

[b]From:[/b] "James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Mg-Tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, February 6, 2017 5:02 PM [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston

 

 

 

 

[Norman Verona]

John,

 

It may not have been but the owner says the pedal was firm and the brakes worked than, next day, the pedal went to the floor.

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] John Kallend [mailto:kallend@iit.edu] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 13:40 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com> [b]Cc:[/b] Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com>; James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com>; Mg-Tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

How do you know it was full to begin with?

_____________________________

John Kallend

Professor Emeritus

Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering

Department of Physics

IIT, Chicago

 

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 1:44 AM, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Clive, in which case the fluid would be coming out of the top of the master. All I m saying is that if a system is full of fluid to get air in some fluid must come out. Do you disagree with this?

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] Clive P Sherriff [mailto:csherriff99@gmail.com] [b]Sent:[/b] 08 February 2017 00:46 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com>; 'James Davis' burburyclose@yahoo.com>; 'Mg-Tabc' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

Norman, If as I suggested at the start, there is a problem with the master cylinder seals, then it's quite possible that air has been sucked into the master cylinder by the pedal strokes.

 

Clive

m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

 

----- Original Message -----

[b]From:[/b] norman@frenchblat.com%20[mg-tabc]

[b]To:[/b] burburyclose@yahoo.com ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com

[b]Sent:[/b] Monday, February 06, 2017 10:42 PM

[b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

Jim,

Something wrong with your statement. If there is air in the system then the fluid that was in there must have leaked out.  I suspect you do have a leak otherwise the air cannot get into the system.

Think of a bottle which is full of water. To get more water in, or air, then the water in the bottle must overflow.

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 06 February 2017 23:03 [b]To:[/b] Mg-Tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston

 

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[Norman Verona]

Clive,

 

But what you describe, in my 50 years of experience, would not give a pedal that went to the floor. It would give a spongy pedal. For the pedal to go to the floor with no brakes at all the master cylinder must be empty so the cylinder is pumping pure air and no fluid at all. Even if 1cc of air is introduced the level in the master cylinder will rise. The area you talk of would fill with fluid on the next pump. If it didn’t the brakes wouldn’t work at all.

 

In my experience if the fluid was leaking slowly the brakes would become spongy. You would not get a firm, hard pedal one day and no pedal the next.

 

I think the best thing is for you to believe what you do and I’ll believe what I do, because folks are probably getting fed up with the argument. (or highly entertained)

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] Clive P Sherriff [mailto:csherriff99@gmail.com] [b]Sent:[/b] 08 February 2017 14:26 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com>; 'James Davis' burburyclose@yahoo.com>; 'Mg-Tabc' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

Hi Norman,

 

Yes, I Disagree, it takes very little air in the master cylinder seal space, say about 1to 2cc (compared with the comparitively huge volume of the reservoir) to completely foul things up. 

 

Additional sucked in air would perhaps go back in the reservoir, but then just bubble to the surface and out of the vent hole.  You would see no difference in the reservoir level at all without very detailed measutement.  Even a couple cc of air would lift the level less than 1mm when spread accross the large reservoir fluid surface area.

 

Clive

= ========================================

----- Original Message -----

[b]From:[/b] norman@frenchblat.com

[b]To:[/b] csherriff99@gmail.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com

[b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 7:44 AM

[b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

Clive, in which case the fluid would be coming out of the top of the master. All I’m saying is that if a system is full of fluid to get air in some fluid must come out. Do you disagree with this?

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] Clive P Sherriff [csherriff99@gmail.com] [b]Sent:[/b] 08 February 2017 00:46 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com>; 'James Davis' burburyclose@yahoo.com>; 'Mg-Tabc' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

Norman, If as I suggested at the start, there is a problem with the master cylinder seals, then it's quite possible that air has been sucked into the master cylinder by the pedal strokes.

 

Clive

m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

 

----- Original Message -----

[b]From:[/b] norman@frenchblat.com%20[mg-tabc]

[b]To:[/b] burburyclose@yahoo.com ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com

[b]Sent:[/b] Monday, February 06, 2017 10:42 PM

[b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

Jim,

Something wrong with your statement. If there is air in the system then the fluid that was in there must have leaked out.  I suspect you do have a leak otherwise the air cannot get into the system.

Think of a bottle which is full of water. To get more water in, or air, then the water in the bottle must overflow.

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 06 February 2017 23:03 [b]To:[/b] Mg-Tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston

 

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[Norman Verona]

The only reason we don t use water in our braking system is due to the corrosion that it would cause. I ve used water to get home after a roadside fix of a broken brake pipe (mole grips on pipe)

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]John Kallend kallend@iit.edu [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 15:05 [b]To:[/b] Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com> [b]Cc:[/b] Duncan morelists@yahoo.com>; MG T-Series List mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

The bulk modulus of water is 2.15 GPa.  For all practical purposes in a braking system it is incompressible..

 

Most commercial hydraulic fluids are in the same ballpark.

_____________________________

John Kallend

Professor Emeritus

Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering

Department of Physics

IIT, Chicago

 

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 7:34 AM, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Duncan,

 

No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab.

 

Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid.   You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact.

 

Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam).  

 

Could be fun though, because if it did and produced  oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen    Then the brake system may well explode !

 

Clive

= =================================

 

 

----- Original Message -----

[b]From:[/b] morelists@yahoo.com+[mg-tabc]

[b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com

[b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM

[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure   Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston

 

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[John Kallend]

Ummm. well, there is that FREEZING thing too. In a Chicago winter water might just be a problem. _____________________________John KallendProfessor EmeritusDepartment of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace EngineeringDepartment of PhysicsIIT, Chicago

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 8:40 AM, Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com> wrote: The only reason we don t use water in our braking system is due to the corrosion that it would cause. I ve used water to get home after a roadside fix of a broken brake pipe (mole grips on pipe)[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

[b]Norman Verona[u][/u][u][/u][/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France[u][/u][u][/u]

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44[u][/u][u][/u]

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79[u][/u][u][/u]

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]John Kallend kallend@iit.edu [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 15:05 [b]To:[/b] Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com> [b]Cc:[/b] Duncan morelists@yahoo.com>; MG T-Series List mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

The bulk modulus of water is 2.15 GPa. For all practical purposes in a braking system it is incompressible..[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

Most commercial hydraulic fluids are in the same ballpark.[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

_____________________________[u][/u][u][/u]

John Kallend[u][/u][u][/u]

Professor Emeritus[u][/u][u][/u]

Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering[u][/u][u][/u]

Department of Physics[u][/u][u][/u]

IIT, Chicago[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 7:34 AM, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Duncan,[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab.[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid. You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact.[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam). [u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Could be fun though, because if it did and produced oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen Then the brake system may well explode ![u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Clive[u][/u][u][/u]

= ============================== ===[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

----- Original Message ----- [u][/u][u][/u]

[b]From:[/b] morelists@yahoo.com+[mg-tabc] [u][/u][u][/u]

[b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com [u][/u][u][/u]

[b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM[u][/u][u][/u]

[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .----------------------------- --------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston [u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

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[John Kallend]

You don't need a full reservoir for the brakes to work. _____________________________John KallendProfessor EmeritusDepartment of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace EngineeringDepartment of PhysicsIIT, Chicago

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 8:21 AM, Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com> wrote: John,[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

It may not have been but the owner says the pedal was firm and the brakes worked than, next day, the pedal went to the floor.[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

[b]Norman Verona[u][/u][u][/u][/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France[u][/u][u][/u]

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44[u][/u][u][/u]

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79[u][/u][u][/u]

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

[b]From:[/b] John Kallend [mailto:kallend@iit.edu] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 13:40 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com> [b]Cc:[/b] Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com>; James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com>; Mg-Tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

How do you know it was full to begin with?[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

_____________________________[u][/u][u][/u]

John Kallend[u][/u][u][/u]

Professor Emeritus[u][/u][u][/u]

Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering[u][/u][u][/u]

Department of Physics[u][/u][u][/u]

IIT, Chicago[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u] [u][/u]

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 1:44 AM, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Clive, in which case the fluid would be coming out of the top of the master. All I m saying is that if a system is full of fluid to get air in some fluid must come out. Do you disagree with this?[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

[b]Norman Verona[/b][u][/u][u][/u]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France[u][/u][u][/u]

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44[u][/u][u][/u]

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79[u][/u][u][/u]

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

[b]From:[/b] Clive P Sherriff [mailto:csherriff99@gmail.com] [b]Sent:[/b] 08 February 2017 00:46 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com>; 'James Davis' burburyclose@yahoo.com>; 'Mg-Tabc' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Norman, If as I suggested at the start, there is a problem with the master cylinder seals, then it's quite possible that air has been sucked into the master cylinder by the pedal strokes.[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Clive[u][/u][u][/u]

m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

----- Original Message ----- [u][/u][u][/u]

[b]From:[/b] norman@frenchblat.com%20[mg-tabc] [u][/u][u][/u]

[b]To:[/b] burburyclose@yahoo.com ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [u][/u][u][/u]

[b]Sent:[/b] Monday, February 06, 2017 10:42 PM[u][/u][u][/u]

[b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Jim, [u][/u][u][/u]

Something wrong with your statement. If there is air in the system then the fluid that was in there must have leaked out. I suspect you do have a leak otherwise the air cannot get into the system.[u][/u][u][/u]

Think of a bottle which is full of water. To get more water in, or air, then the water in the bottle must overflow.[u][/u][u][/u]

[b]Norman Verona[/b][u][/u][u][/u]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France[u][/u][u][/u]

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44[u][/u][u][/u]

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79[u][/u][u][/u]

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)[u][/u][u][/u]

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 06 February 2017 23:03 [b]To:[/b] Mg-Tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Brake Failure[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston[u][/u][u][/u]

[u][/u][u][/u]

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[Norman Verona]

John, drop of anti-freeze will cure that. May rot the rubber seals but the brakes would still work until then.

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] John Kallend [mailto:kallend@iit.edu] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 15:44 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com> [b]Cc:[/b] Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com>; Duncan morelists@yahoo.com>; MG T-Series List mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

Ummm. well, there is that FREEZING thing too.  In a Chicago winter water might just be a problem.

_____________________________

John Kallend

Professor Emeritus

Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering

Department of Physics

IIT, Chicago

 

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 8:40 AM, Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com> wrote:

The only reason we don t use water in our braking system is due to the corrosion that it would cause. I ve used water to get home after a roadside fix of a broken brake pipe (mole grips on pipe)

 

[b]Norman Verona[/b]

La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France

Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44

Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79

Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

 

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]John Kallend kallend@iit.edu [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 15:05 [b]To:[/b] Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com> [b]Cc:[/b] Duncan morelists@yahoo.com>; MG T-Series List mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

The bulk modulus of water is 2.15 GPa.  For all practical purposes in a braking system it is incompressible..

 

Most commercial hydraulic fluids are in the same ballpark.

_____________________________

John Kallend

Professor Emeritus

Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering

Department of Physics

IIT, Chicago

 

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 7:34 AM, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Duncan,

 

No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab.

 

Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid.   You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact.

 

Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam).  

 

Could be fun though, because if it did and produced  oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen    Then the brake system may well explode !

 

Clive

= =================================

 

 

----- Original Message -----

[b]From:[/b] morelists@yahoo.com+[mg-tabc]

[b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com

[b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM

[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

 

 

Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure   Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston

 

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[Owen Frankland]

Good brakes one day pedal to the floor the next = failed master cylinder.

[Stephen D Stierman]

Norman,I am not necessarily debating your premise that the MC is at fault, what I am saying is before the OP decides that is the problem, he ought take a good close look at the rest of system to be sure nothing else has gone south.  Unless of course all the hydraulics have just been rebuilt/replaced which still doesn't guarantee that there is not a problem.  Additionally you are taking his description of events at face value and his explanation may not be quite the same as mine should I experience a similar situation.  Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] 'Stephen D Stierman' morgan7709@sbcglobal.net>; 'Steve S' mail@mgnuts.com>; 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 7, 2017 9:19 AM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure   Steve, I agree. However the report said the pedal was hard one day and no brakes at all the next. A master cylinder with mixed air and fluid will give a spongy pedal which will pump up to hard is pumped. However a cylinder which is completely empty will have a pedal which goes to the floor and will not pump up.  Do you disagree?  [b]Norman Verona[/b]La Foie, 49520, Noellet, FranceTel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)  [b]From:[/b] Stephen D Stierman [mailto:morgan7709@sbcglobal.net] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 12:19 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com>; 'Steve S' mail@mgnuts.com>; 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure  Not so Norman,As Steve points out and I have found personally, enough air entering via wheel cylinder(s) and a bit of loss at the same place, will cause a peddle to become softer over time, eventually causing brake actuation to become almost nil.Steve TC2911  From: "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] 'Steve S' mail@mgnuts.com>; 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:25 AM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure    Steve, the point is the OP said there was no signs of a leak. To get total brake failure the master cylinder must empty completely. And to get sudden total failure the leak must be substantial. I have suggested that before going for the unusual, with the master cylinder the wheel cylinders and the brake pipes are inspected. It would appear we are talking a substantial leak so it should be clearly visible. [b]Norman Verona[/b]La Foie, 49520, Noellet, FranceTel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces) [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 09:25 [b]To:[/b] 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure   It takes very little air to cause massive brake fade.  When you bleed the brakes, each pump yields a lot of fluid with a small amount of bubbles.  However the brakes go from soft to firm.  If you somehow had enough air coming in from below to displace 3/4" of fluid in the cylinder and overflow it, you'd probably completely empty all four cylinders and half of the hard lines!- Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 2/6/2017 11:49 PM, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] wrote:

  Steve, In which case the fluid would be overflowing from the master. [b]Norman Verona[/b]La Foie, 49520, Noellet, FranceTel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces) [b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 02:48 [b]To:[/b] MG tabcgroups MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure   Agreed.  Air can definitely come in past the wheel cylinder cups.  No leak necessary.  If the master cylinder returns faster than the brake shoes, air can be pulled in.  Ensure the brake springs are all in correct working condition to prevent it from happening.- Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 2/6/2017 5:26 PM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:  I had a continual problems with air entering the braking system, likely comi! ng via wheel cylinder(s) that may have been seeping slightly, don't discard that end of the system as the problem.  Bleeding would result in a hard peddle that over time would become softer in use.Steve TC2911 [b]From:[/b] "James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Mg-Tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, February 6, 2017 5:02 PM [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Brake Failure   Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston 

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