Wilsons Sandbox

Ed, I m kind of leaning toward the hand brake hang up.  More testing needed but that s behind the HB cable question.   We did check the fronts while on the lift.  Locking up nicely.   Re Adjusters, we adjusted them to a light drag and then backed off to free wheeling all 4 wheels prior to the last bleed round.   Corky     [b]From:[/b] recon6060@aol.com">recon6060@aol.com [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, October 3, 2018 06:09 PM [b]To:[/b] corkandpris@charter.net">corkandpris@charter.net [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Hot rear brakes   Two thoughts. The hand brake is hanging up. Have to issue with one of my TC's. But mine releases after driving a few hundred of feet. Maybe yours is hanging up longer.   Second thought. Maybe you are looking at the wrong end. The fronts may not be working forcing the rears to do all the braking and getting hot.   I didn't see anything in your write up about adjusting the brakes?   Ed -----Original Message----- From: corkandpris@charter.net [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> To: mg-tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wed, Oct 3, 2018 4:49 pm Subject: [mg-tabc] Hot rear brakes   Hi All, 1. Background: About a month ago on a club excursion, I noticed that while stopping, there was a pulsation in the pedal and after we stopped on an incline either uphill or down, when I removed my foot from the brake pedal, the car didn t roll. Engaging the clutch briefly forward or reverse, resulted in the car then rolling freely either forward or backward depending upon the incline. When we got home, I found that the L/R drum was very hot (could just barely touch it) and the R/R drum was hot (could touch but not linger). Fronts, no problem. The last brake system maintenance has been some years and miles ago. So initially speculated it might be a constricted rear brake hose -though stainless, they are a couple of decades and 10s of thousand miles old - and so ordered a set, of three. I put it up on jack stands and had a look. Found the L/R backing plate was caked with damp axle oil and brake dust despite having tapered axle(s) with Speedi-sleeves and seals in the nuts (Phil Marino) and a Speedi-sleeve on the axle housing seal surface. I later discovered that I may have seated the Speedi-sleeve too deep on the axle housing and the seal was riding on the outer edge of the Speedi-sleeve. I have left the new oil seal slightly proud of the bearing hub to compensate. I don t understand the axle seal leaking.. The right side is dusty but dry as are the fronts. Examination of the drums and shoes prompted a skimming of the drums and renewal of the shoes with soft molded linings.   So, Monday I received the relined shoes and mounted all four sets. At which point my back said stop. Yesterday, I mounted the drums. The fronts slipped on without issue but the rears were reluctant. I used a couple of band clamps to hold the shoes retracted and was able to get them mounted but when I turned the wheels, there was drag on both. So, I ran the car in gear on the jack stands (no wheels) hoping to seat everything and the right side was the one that turned. Let it run for a bit and then mounted a wheel to hold it and forced the left one to turn. It got hot very quickly. At this point, I remembered that I had slaked off the hand brake cables to the point that the threaded ends of the cables were flush with the ends of the nuts. I slacked off both cables to the point that the springs would barely hold the rounded recess of the nut from turning against the shaft. Crawled back out and found that both drums turned freely. OK then. Off to a friend with both a TC and more importantly, an unoccupied lift to change the brake hoses and flush the system (DOT-5 since 1990, flushed occasionally and about 4-5 years ago last). The old hoses seem ok upon removal but the new ones were at hand so, replaced them. Tried a Myti-Vac but weren t too successful - applying lots of vacuum without much result and so reverted to the up - down method which worked. BTW the master and wheel cylinders are all solid bronze.   Took a test drive and it stopped straight hands off the wheel - no panic stops just moderate. No noticeable hang-ups. Reset the free play of the handbrake handle to about 3/4" and headed home. Stopped to chat with a friend for about 30 minutes and then home about 5 miles from there. Pulled into the garage and felt of the drums. L/R Hot not, so hot as to burn but you couldn t leave your hand there for long. R/R warm. Fronts cool. Day was done. Haven t been back yet. I ve been wondering about the hand brake cables. New in 1989 or so and greased with the rest of the car regularly. Just wondering if it might be useful to remove, clean and re-lubricate them based on yesterday morning s experience. Which begs the question: Is it possible to remove the inner cable from the sheath by pulling it out through the backing plate or is complete removal of the cable assembly required?   Any other suggestions, ideas or questions?   Thanks, Corky #ygrps-yiv-1595835534 #ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolmsgpart_2_e9a51355-07f3-4dd8-8396-58ed36853d6b td{color:black;}#ygrps-yiv-1595835534 .ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolreplacedbody #ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolmail_ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#ygrps-yiv-1595835534 .ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolreplacedbody #ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolmail_ygrp-mkp hr {border:1px solid #d8d8d8;}#ygrps-yiv-1595835534 .ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolreplacedbody #ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolmail_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolmail_hd {color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;}#ygrps-yiv-1595835534 .ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolreplacedbody #ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolmail_ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-1595835534aolmail_ads 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Andy,   Both shoes and drums are correct.  Been on the car or several thousand miles.  Something has gone awry.   I do have access to another TC belonging to a long time friend who has the same setup for comparison.   As the Beatles sang: We can work it out   Thanks,   Corky   [b]From:[/b] apreshke@comcast.net">apreshke@comcast.net [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, October 3, 2018 06:16 PM [b]To:[/b] corkandpris@charter.net">corkandpris@charter.net [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Hot rear brakes   Corky, your description of the brakes' set-up did not mention whether or not your brake shoes and/or the drums are the correct for the car.  That is, if someone somewhere had installed drums and shoes that resulted in a larger than the permissible radius in relation to the inner circumference of the drums no amount of slacking off of the shoes would prevent over heating as there would always be friction (until the brake shoes wore down enough).  As unlikely as this sounds, I think you would be well advised to go to a brake shop that knows older cars to diagnose what is causing this problem.  Or, compare your brake set-up to another car of the same vintage.  Suggest also that you look for John Twist in Grand Rapids, MI on Google - if he doesn't know what's going on, nobody does.  His web site invites questions and he usually has the answers. Good luck! Andy in Sacramento On 10/3/2018 1:49 PM, corkandpris@charter.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

  Hi All, 1. Background: About a month ago on a club excursion, I noticed that while stopping, there was a pulsation in the pedal and after we stopped on an incline either uphill or down, when I removed my foot from the brake pedal, the car didn t roll. Engaging the clutch briefly forward or reverse, resulted in the car then rolling freely either forward or backward depending upon the incline. When we got home, I found that the L/R drum was very hot (could just barely touch it) and the R/R drum was hot (could touch but not linger). Fronts, no problem. The last brake system maintenance has been some years and miles ago. So initially speculated it might be a constricted rear brake hose -though stainless, they are a couple of decades and 10s of thousand miles old - and so ordered a set, of three. I put it up on jack stands and had a look. Found the L/R backing plate was caked with damp axle oil and brake dust despite having tapered axle(s) with Speedi-sleeves and seals in the nuts (Phil Marino) and a Speedi-sleeve on the axle housing seal surface. I later discovered that I may have seated the Speedi-sleeve too deep on the axle housing and the seal was riding on the outer edge of the Speedi-sleeve. I have left the new oil seal slightly proud of the bearing hub to compensate. I don t understand the axle seal leaking.. The right side is dusty but dry as are the fronts. Examination of the drums and shoes prompted a skimming of the drums and renewal of the shoes with soft molded linings.   So, Monday I received the relined shoes and mounted all four sets. At which point my back said stop. Yesterday, I mounted the drums. The fronts slipped on without issue but the rears were reluctant. I used a couple of band clamps to hold the shoes retracted and was able to get them mounted but when I turned the wheels, there was drag on both. So, I ran the car in gear on the jack stands (no wheels) hoping to seat everything and the right side was the one that turned. Let it run for a bit and then mounted a wheel to hold it and forced the left one to turn. It got hot very quickly. At this point, I remembered that I had slaked off the hand brake cables to the point that the threaded ends of the cables were flush with the ends of the nuts. I slacked off both cables to the point that the springs would barely hold the rounded recess of the nut from turning against the shaft. Crawled back out and found that both drums turned freely. OK then. Off to a friend with both a TC and more importantly, an unoccupied lift to change the brake hoses and flush the system (DOT-5 since 1990, flushed occasionally and about 4-5 years ago last). The old hoses seem ok upon removal but the new ones were at hand so, replaced them. Tried a Myti-Vac but weren t too successful - applying lots of vacuum without much result and so reverted to the up - down method which worked. BTW the master and wheel cylinders are all solid bronze.   Took a test drive and it stopped straight hands off the wheel - no panic stops just moderate. No noticeable hang-ups. Reset the free play of the handbrake handle to about 3/4" and headed home. Stopped to chat with a friend for about 30 minutes and then home about 5 miles from there. Pulled into the garage and felt of the drums. L/R Hot not, so hot as to burn but you couldn t leave your hand there for long. R/R warm. Fronts cool. Day was done. Haven t been back yet. I ve been wondering about the hand brake cables. New in 1989 or so and greased with the rest of the car regularly. Just wondering if it might be useful to remove, clean and re-lubricate them based on yesterday morning s experience. Which begs the question: Is it possible to remove the inner cable from the sheath by pulling it out through the backing plate or is complete removal of the cable assembly required?   Any other suggestions, ideas or questions?   Thanks, Corky

Hi Butch,   Nice to know that somebody else came to that conclusion.  We did replace all three hoses as they had been on the car for a while.  They were all clear though   Thanks,   Corky   [b]From:[/b] mgyowner@yahoo.com">Roland Taras [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, October 3, 2018 11:51 PM [b]To:[/b] corkandpris@charter.net">Cork&Pris [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Hot rear brakes   Hello Corky.  Since you are doing a very good logical step by step, I'm going to throw out an idea, that the flex line to the rear axle is bad.  The difference between the heat in the two brake drums is one of the brake springs is weak on one side.  Just something else to check. Butch On Wednesday, October 3, 2018 6:03 PM, "'Cork&Pris' corkandpris@charter.net [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Andy,   Both shoes and drums are correct.  Been on the car or several thousand miles.  Something has gone awry.   I do have access to another TC belonging to a long time friend who has the same setup for comparison.   As the Beatles sang: We can work it out   Thanks,   Corky   [b]From:[/b] apreshke@comcast.net" shape="rect">apreshke@comcast.net [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, October 3, 2018 06:16 PM [b]To:[/b] corkandpris@charter.net" shape="rect">corkandpris@charter.net [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Hot rear brakes   Corky, your description of the brakes' set-up did not mention whether or not your brake shoes and/or the drums are the correct for the car.  That is, if someone somewhere had installed drums and shoes that resulted in a larger than the permissible radius in relation to the inner circumference of the drums no amount of slacking off of the shoes would prevent over heating as there would always be friction (until the brake shoes wore down enough).  As unlikely as this sounds, I think you would be well advised to go to a brake shop that knows older cars to diagnose what is causing this problem.  Or, compare your brake set-up to another car of the same vintage.  Suggest also that you look for John Twist in Grand Rapids, MI on Google - if he doesn't know what's going on, nobody does.  His web site invites questions and he usually has the answers. Good luck! Andy in Sacramento   On 10/3/2018 1:49 PM, corkandpris@charter.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

  Hi All, 1. Background: About a month ago on a club excursion, I noticed that while stopping, there was a pulsation in the pedal and after we stopped on an incline either uphill or down, when I removed my foot from the brake pedal, the car didn t roll. Engaging the clutch briefly forward or reverse, resulted in the car then rolling freely either forward or backward depending upon the incline. When we got home, I found that the L/R drum was very hot (could just barely touch it) and the R/R drum was hot (could touch but not linger). Fronts, no problem. The last brake system maintenance has been some years and miles ago. So initially speculated it might be a constricted rear brake hose -though stainless, they are a couple of decades and 10s of thousand miles old - and so ordered a set, of three. I put it up on jack stands and had a look. Found the L/R backing plate was caked with damp axle oil and brake dust despite having tapered axle(s) with Speedi-sleeves and seals in the nuts (Phil Marino) and a Speedi-sleeve on the axle housing seal surface. I later discovered that I may have seated the Speedi-sleeve too deep on the axle housing and the seal was riding on the outer edge of the Speedi-sleeve. I have left the new oil seal slightly proud of the bearing hub to compensate. I don t understand the axle seal leaking.. The right side is dusty but dry as are the fronts. Examination of the drums and shoes prompted a skimming of the drums and renewal of the shoes with soft molded linings.   So, Monday I received the relined shoes and mounted all four sets. At which point my back said stop. Yesterday, I mounted the drums. The fronts slipped on without issue but the rears were reluctant. I used a couple of band clamps to hold the shoes retracted and was able to get them mounted but when I turned the wheels, there was drag on both. So, I ran the car in gear on the jack stands (no wheels) hoping to seat everything and the right side was the one that turned. Let it run for a bit and then mounted a wheel to hold it and forced the left one to turn. It got hot very quickly. At this point, I remembered that I had slaked off the hand brake cables to the point that the threaded ends of the cables were flush with the ends of the nuts. I slacked off both cables to the point that the springs would barely hold the rounded recess of the nut from turning against the shaft. Crawled back out and found that both drums turned freely. OK then. Off to a friend with both a TC and more importantly, an unoccupied lift to change the brake hoses and flush the system (DOT-5 since 1990, flushed occasionally and about 4-5 years ago last). The old hoses seem ok upon removal but the new ones were at hand so, replaced them. Tried a Myti-Vac but weren t too successful - applying lots of vacuum without much result and so reverted to the up - down method which worked. BTW the master and wheel cylinders are all solid bronze.   Took a test drive and it stopped straight hands off the wheel - no panic stops just moderate. No noticeable hang-ups. Reset the free play of the handbrake handle to about 3/4" and headed home. Stopped to chat with a friend for about 30 minutes and then home about 5 miles from there. Pulled into the garage and felt of the drums. L/R Hot not, so hot as to burn but you couldn t leave your hand there for long. R/R warm. Fronts cool. Day was done. Haven t been back yet. I ve been wondering about the hand brake cables. New in 1989 or so and greased with the rest of the car regularly. Just wondering if it might be useful to remove, clean and re-lubricate them based on yesterday morning s experience. Which begs the question: Is it possible to remove the inner cable from the sheath by pulling it out through the backing plate or is complete removal of the cable assembly required?   Any other suggestions, ideas or questions?   Thanks, Corky

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#ygrps-yiv-399548804 v\00003a* {} #ygrps-yiv-399548804 o\00003a* {} #ygrps-yiv-399548804 w\00003a* {} #ygrps-yiv-399548804 .ygrps-yiv-399548804shape {} Wim,   I did check that the bearings were clinched in the bearing carrier when they were assembled a few years ago.  I checked them as you suggested and could not detect any play.  I did also drive the car around a roughly 5 mile loop one time using liberal but moderate braking and the rear drums got warm like before.  After cooling and retracting the adjusters on all four rear shoes, I drove the same loop without using the brakes and the drums remained at the same temperature as when I started.   Corky   [b]From:[/b] jetten@bluewin.ch">Wim Jetten [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, October 4, 2018 02:08 AM [b]To:[/b] corkandpris@charter.net">corkandpris@charter.net [b]Subject:[/b] AW: [mg-tabc] Hot rear brakes   High Corky,

 

I have had problems with hot rear brakes in the past, due to play in the hub bearings. Under the load of the car the brake drums very slightly tilt  and can touch the linings. Have you checked play in the hub bearings? Jack up the car at the rear and rock the rear wheels grabbing the wheel at the top and the bottom. After I replaced the bearings and correctly set them up the hot brake problem was gone.

 

Wim

 

[b]Von:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Im Auftrag von [/b]corkandpris@charter.net [mg-tabc] [b]Gesendet:[/b] Mittwoch, 3. Oktober 2018 22:50 [b]An:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Betreff:[/b] [mg-tabc] Hot rear brakes

 

Hi All,

1. Background: About a month ago on a club excursion, I noticed that while stopping, there was a pulsation in the pedal and after we stopped on an incline either uphill or down, when I removed my foot from the brake pedal, the car didn t roll. Engaging the clutch briefly forward or reverse, resulted in the car then rolling freely either forward or backward depending upon the incline. When we got home, I found that the L/R drum was very hot (could just barely touch it) and the R/R drum was hot (could touch but not linger). Fronts, no problem. The last brake system maintenance has been some years and miles ago. So initially speculated it might be a constricted rear brake hose -though stainless, they are a couple of decades and 10s of thousand miles old - and so ordered a set, of three. I put it up on jack stands and had a look. Found the L/R backing plate was caked with damp axle oil and brake dust despite having tapered axle(s) with Speedi-sleeves and seals in the nuts (Phil Marino) and a Speedi-sleeve on the axle housing seal surface. I later discovered that I may have seated the Speedi-sleeve too deep on the axle housing and the seal was riding on the outer edge of the Speedi-sleeve. I have left the new oil seal slightly proud of the bearing hub to compensate. I don t understand the axle seal leaking.. The right side is dusty but dry as are the fronts. Examination of the drums and shoes prompted a skimming of the drums and renewal of the shoes with soft molded linings.

 

So, Monday I received the relined shoes and mounted all four sets. At which point my back said stop. Yesterday, I mounted the drums. The fronts slipped on without issue but the rears were reluctant. I used a couple of band clamps to hold the shoes retracted and was able to get them mounted but when I turned the wheels, there was drag on both. So, I ran the car in gear on the jack stands (no wheels) hoping to seat everything and the right side was the one that turned. Let it run for a bit and then mounted a wheel to hold it and forced the left one to turn. It got hot very quickly. At this point, I remembered that I had slaked off the hand brake cables to the point that the threaded ends of the cables were flush with the ends of the nuts. I slacked off both cables to the point that the springs would barely hold the rounded recess of the nut from turning against the shaft. Crawled back out and found that both drums turned freely. OK then. Off to a friend with both a TC and more importantly, an unoccupied lift to change the brake hoses and flush the system (DOT-5 since 1990, flushed occasionally and about 4-5 years ago last). The old hoses seem ok upon removal but the new ones were at hand so, replaced them. Tried a Myti-Vac but weren t too successful - applying lots of vacuum without much result and so reverted to the up - down method which worked. BTW the master and wheel cylinders are all solid bronze.

 

Took a test drive and it stopped straight hands off the wheel - no panic stops just moderate. No noticeable hang-ups. Reset the free play of the handbrake handle to about 3/4" and headed home. Stopped to chat with a friend for about 30 minutes and then home about 5 miles from there. Pulled into the garage and felt of the drums. L/R Hot not, so hot as to burn but you couldn t leave your hand there for long. R/R warm. Fronts cool. Day was done. Haven t been back yet.

I ve been wondering about the hand brake cables. New in 1989 or so and greased with the rest of the car regularly. Just wondering if it might be useful to remove, clean and re-lubricate them based on yesterday morning s experience. Which begs the question: Is it possible to remove the inner cable from the sheath by pulling it out through the backing plate or is complete removal of the cable assembly required?

 

Any other suggestions, ideas or questions?

 

Thanks, Corky