Wilsons Sandbox

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]MIKE INGLEHEARN mingle54@btinternet.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, March 5, 2018 12:19 AM [b]To:[/b] Chris Howard chrisrhoward@sky.com>; 'MG-TABC List' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] BSW & BSF Spanners

Hi Chris

Thank you for your reply, I know BSW heads are currently the same size as BSF, and have also now found a table with the 1924 head sizes confirming they were originally larger. With regard to the war time directive, I could only find references to it and not the actual directive.

My interest was due to research on the tools rather than the bolts, and the first place I came across the reference was on a MMM site about the tools supplied with the cars and what to look for. The writer said because of this directive, generally only post war spanners would be marked with BSW and BSF sizes, all pre war spanners being marked only with the size, or marked W. As BSF was around pre war I could not see the logic of this statement, I have a photo of a spanner marked with both sizes and dated 1930, I also have some Shelley spanners that I believe are pre war with both sizes marked.

Whilst there are very few BSW bolts on the car, being post WW2 it would not affect the TC, I may be wrong but I think the metric bolts with BSF heads are available from Roger Furneaux's Mad Metrics, but it looks like I will have to make my own BSW bolt for the dynamo!

Regards

Mike

TB0457

[b]From:[/b] "'Chris Howard' chrisrhoward@sky.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] 'MIKE INGLEHEARN' mingle54@btinternet.com>; 'MG-TABC List' mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Sunday, 4 March 2018, 19:54 [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] BSW & BSF Spanners

Mike

Before WW2 BSF bolt head sizes were one size smaller than BSW as a result spanners were marked with two sizes eg 1/4 BSW and 5/16 BSF. This was to account for the BSW thread being coarser and stronger than the BSF. It would seem that during WW2 your directive below instructed bolt manufacturers to make the head sizes the same for the same diameter bolt. To this day BSF/BSW spanners are still marked with both sizes although the bolts have the same size heads for a given diameter. There are very few BSW nuts/bolts on TCs, the dynamo adjustment bolt was BSW and the gearbox mounts had BSW studs. Also the engine bolts and nuts on the TC were metric fine but they had BSF/BSW head sizes to avoid the need for two sets of spanners these days we use standard metric bolts/nuts and therefore also need metric spanners. Regards Chris Howard TC/9164

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]MIKE INGLEHEARN mingle54@btinternet.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 03 March 2018 17:02 [b]To:[/b] MG-TABC List [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] BSW & BSF Spanners

Hi

During some recent research on tools, in a couple of places I came across the following statement :-

"During the Second World War the standards were revised again as "War Emergency B.S. 916 : 1940" as an austerity measure to reduce steel consumption and this resulted in the head sizes being reduced by one step (so the head size for the older Whitworth 1/4" bolt was used for the revised BSW/BSF 5/16" bolt, etc, avoiding the need for new tools)"

One source stated the only post war spanners would be marked with both BSW & BSF sizes, and pre war spanners were most likely to have no marking other than size ie not even "W". This would all imply pre war and post war head sizes to be different for the same size bolt!

Could anyone clarify what happened, could it be I that the wartime directive was suggesting the use where possible of the smaller headed BSF bolts in preference to BSW, rather than making an actual reduction in the size of the head, or do we need special "large headed bolts for pre-war cars?

I have come across a photo of an air Ministry spanner showing both BSW & BSF sizes and dated 1930.

Perhaps it is me that is misunderstanding what is being said!

Regards

Mike

TB0457

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Posted: **Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:15 am**

Attachments :I understand, I may have missed your point. My question would be can anyone validate this bolt on a TB? I have not seen enough pre-ware hardware to know. The transition to the small headed Whitworth bolt could have certainly been in the works during the late 30 with war looming on the horizon. The Government decree could have been a formalization and standardization of what had already been tested. Your original thread stated as early as 1930 both terms were used on an Air Ministry Spanner.

I would ask what would be a better choice or a serious restoration. New bolt with no markings or an original period bolt with markings.

Kind regards,

[b][i]Doug Pelton,[/i][/b] Proprietor

From The Frame Up

480-588-8185

For Fastest Service: order@fromtheframeup.com

[b]From:[/b] MIKE INGLEHEARN [mailto:mingle54@btinternet.com] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, March 5, 2018 11:19 AM [b]To:[/b] Doug Pelton doug@fromtheframeup.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: BSW & BSF Spanners

Hi Doug

That has been the main topic of this thread that pre-war BSW bolts had a larger head (one size larger than the BSF bolts) but during the war to save steel the standard was hanged to be one size smaller ie the same size as BSF bolts. This is why a 5/16 BSF spanner is the same as a 1/4 BSW spanner since pre-war those were the size of bolts they fitted but post war a 5/16 BSW head was the same size as a 5/16 BSW head. The TB being pre-war would have the larger head (requiring a 5/16 BSW spanner) equivalent to a 3/8 BSF bolt head.

Regards

Mike

TB0457

[b]From:[/b] Doug Pelton doug@fromtheframeup.com> [b]To:[/b] 'MIKE INGLEHEARN' mingle54@btinternet.com> Sent: Monday, 5 March 2018, 18:23 Subject: RE: BSW & BSF Spanners

Hi Mike,

I am not aware of this bolt with a large Whitworth head.

BSP140, newton head $13.50, 5/16 BSF head, course whitworth thread.

Best regards,

[b][i]Doug Pelton,[/i][/b] Proprietor

From The Frame Up

480-588-8185

For Fastest Service: order@fromtheframeup.com

[b]From:[/b] MIKE INGLEHEARN [mingle54@btinternet.com] [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, March 5, 2018 6:13 AM [b]To:[/b] Doug Pelton doug@fromtheframeup.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: BSW & BSF Spanners

Hi Doug

Can you advise me as to what the part number and price is for the Whitworth bolt on the dynamo for the TB (pre war so larger size head)?

Thanks

Regards

Mike

[b]From:[/b] "'Doug Pelton' doug@fromtheframeup.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] 'MIKE INGLEHEARN' mingle54@btinternet.com>; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, 5 March 2018, 13:49 [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] BSW & BSF Spanners

For those that are struggling with proper hardware:

FTFU has over 200 factory correct fastener sets for TABC. Our stock includes every fastener on the car to include the Whitworth bolt (w/ newton markings) on the dynamo.

No need to make any of this stuff. See our catalog and / or contact FTFU off line with your needs.

[b][i]Doug Pelton,[/i][/b] Proprietor

From The Frame Up

480-588-8185

For Fastest Service: order@fromtheframeup.com