Wilsons Sandbox

Posted: **Wed May 29, 2002 3:00 pm**

My TC is continuously leaking oil from the spokes. There was some discussion recently about tapered axles et. al. Help. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Posted: **Thu May 30, 2002 1:11 am**

Hi Tom, my TC suffered the same problem, cure? Fit Roger Furneaux`s hub nuts with integral lip seal. There is a bit more than just that... rebuild rear hubs, new half shafts (if reqd) etc. I completed this job end of 2001 and have driven 2000 miles since with no sign of oil leak. Suggest you also refer to TC`s Forever for advice. Regards Steve TC4219

> My TC is continuously leaking oil from the spokes. There was some discussion >recently about tapered axles et. al. Help. > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://talk21.btopenworld.com/redirect.html?http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/'>[url=http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>

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Posted: **Thu May 30, 2002 5:27 am**

Tom, here's what we have found to help eliminate rear axle leaks. So far so good on many TAs -TCs and MMMs at Safety Fast Restoration!!! 1. Remove & replace brass bushings/seals in axle housing. 1a. (I like the new nylotron bushings from Mike Dowley even better) 2. Replace half shafts and hubs if necessary - it's mandatory that the joints between half shaft & hub are press fit or taper- modified. If your half shafts & hubs are original there is a good chance the joining splines are worn. Further, the drive splines on the outside of the hub are probably toast, too. To check spline condition, SQUEEZE hand around the drive splines. Sharp splines = wear as they should be flat on the top. /\/\/\ = worn / \/ \/ \ = good 3. Seal half shaft & inside hub joint with silicone. Also, plug greaser hole in hub with silicone. 4. Use Roger Furneaux locking nuts with seals. If using his seal sleeve (with epoxy) on the shaft you may skip #3. We have the rear axle housing counterbored for seals after housing has been stripped during a restoration, thus eliminating need for these nuts. Or use both seals on either end! 5. Replace rear bearings with sealed C2 (closer tolerance) bearings. Use bearing Locktite if necessary but not to take up LOOSE fit. 6. Set up spacing as per TC's Forever. Shim if necessary. 7. Make certain the diff is not over filled. Maybe this should be number 1! 8. We use Permatex anerobic sealant on the hub flanges now - no gasket. So far so good. 9. Clean old oil & yuck from inside of wheel hubs. Silicone the ends of all the hub spokes to seal from the inside. This is time consuming but it works. Don't take short cuts - and all wear and slop must be eliminated or you'll be cleaning spokes again!! Good luck. tommm

----- Original Message ----- From: Tombutlercpa@cs.com> To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 6:00 PM Subject: [mg-tabc] Rear wheel oil > My TC is continuously leaking oil from the spokes. There was some discussion > recently about tapered axles et. al. Help. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2002 4:15 pm**

hi all - Tom has covered all the main points pretty well, but I would just like to add the following:

>1. Remove & replace brass bushings/seals in axle housing. > 1a. (I like the new nylotron bushings from Mike Dowley even better)

*** Half shafts flex considerable, especially going round corners: this causes the oil scroll bushes to get more wear on their inner ends. All the commercial ones I have seen have very shallow grooves, and only just over 1 1/2 turns, which quickly disappear. When I used to make them, I always cut a deeper groove with about 3 1/2 turns. But not needed at all of course, see 4. below.

>2. Replace half shafts and hubs if necessary - it's mandatory that the >joints between half shaft & hub are press fit or taper- modified.

*** The standard shaft/hub splines wear initially due to the hub rocking on the shaft, then when things get really bad the splines wear on their sides. The worst I saw had less than half the original width, on both hub and shaft splines!! Taper-fit shafts cannot, of course, rock in the hubs.

>3. Seal half shaft & inside hub joint with silicone. Also, plug greaser

hole in hub with silicone. *** New hubs, of UK manufacture anyway, have not been made with this hole for several years. A lot of people used to pump so much grease in here that it could not help but escape from the bearing carrier seal.

>4. Use Roger Furneaux locking nuts with seals. If using his seal sleeve >(with epoxy) on the shaft you may skip #3. We have the rear axle housing >counterbored for seals after housing has been stripped during a restoration, >thus eliminating need for these nuts. Or use both seals on either end!

*** Thanx for the plug! My seals are double lipped, and easily obtainable (inch sizing). The only seals that fit in the ends of the axle case are very narrow and the single lip is miniscule. Plus, most people want a solution that does not involve lugging the back axle to a machine shop.

>5. Replace rear bearings with sealed C2 (closer tolerance) bearings. Use >bearing Locktite if necessary but not to take up LOOSE fit.

*** The original bearings fitted to the T-series (and maybe MMM as well) were heavy duty types with 12 or 13 balls (such as M208) but the cheaper, lower load capacity 6208 with only 9 balls seems to be more popular for some reason. I would question the use of closer tolerance bearings: my one experience of these was that they began to break up very quickly. These are "single row light type rigid" bearings, not really suited to the application, and need the slight freedom of movement that a loose tolerance gives. Apart from using M208s the best upgrade is to use double row 4208 bearings, which are 5mm wider.

>6. Set up spacing as per TC's Forever. Shim if necessary.

*** Should not be necessary. Mike Sherrell has admitted to me that his drawing was exaggerated!

>7. Make certain the diff is not over filled. Maybe this should be number 1! >8. We use Permatex anerobic sealant on the hub flanges now - no gasket. So >far so good.

*** The racers in the UK have used "Instant Gasket" here (and elsewhere) for years. Typical gap between flanges is 6 thou, typical paper gasker with goo on both sides is 10 thou. Nuff said!

>9. Clean old oil & yuck from inside of wheel hubs. Silicone the ends of all >the hub spokes to seal from the inside.

*** If there is no oil in the hub, this is unnecessary - but do it anyway, it keeps water out. ***** If anyone wants lip-sealed hub nuts, PLS contact me off-list. They are 25 a set plus postage (say $41 total to the USA) at which price I won't get rich, but if a few more T-types don't get oil on the brakes, I can take some pleasure from that. ocTagonally Roger Tom Butler wrote:

>> My TC is continuously leaking oil from the spokes. There was some discussion >> recently about tapered axles et. al. Help.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Posted: **Fri May 31, 2002 5:13 pm**

Roger, speaking of all this rear axle stuff... more of your hex nuts with seals arrived today. Thanks for sending them. The C2 grade bearing seems to be a good upgrade so far. It's absolutely the only thing the bearing shops have been able to find that doesn't wobble all over. It's only one step closer in tolerance than the standard out of 4 steps, and it's not a "precision". Further, this C2 grade is the same tolerance as the STANDARD bearing grade when the cars were built. During the "energy crisis" in the early 70's bearing manufacturers took this opportunity to make looser tolerance bearings (cheaper) to be more energy efficient. The grades were dropped as thou's increased. At least this is what the guys at the bearings shop tell us. Can you bring a brand new M208 to Silverstone to compare with the C2 grade 6208? I wonder if it's about the same thing? The only time we do the counterboring is if the rear axle housing is stripped and clean during a restoration. Not worth taking the thing out just for that & I'm liking your seals/nuts better anyway. One more point... I wonder about leaving the brass bushing/seal out all together? Seems to me it helps keep the half shaft rigid and in the proper place. I know the bearing holds the car up, but doesn't the bushing help to reduce flex and keep the half shaft in alignment with the hub flange on corners? And why doesn't somebody like Orson do new half shafts & hubs with taperd fit rather than splines? Enquiring minds want to know... tommm

----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Furneaux" roger.46tc@virgin.net> To: "tom metcalf" mgtom@bright.net> Cc: ".T-ABCs" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Friday, May 31, 2002 7:14 PM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Rear wheel oil hi all - Tom has covered all the main points pretty well, but I would just like to add the following: >1. Remove & replace brass bushings/seals in axle housing. > 1a. (I like the new nylotron bushings from Mike Dowley even better) *** Half shafts flex considerable, especially going round corners: this causes the oil scroll bushes to get more wear on their inner ends. All the commercial ones I have seen have very shallow grooves, and only just over 1 1/2 turns, which quickly disappear. When I used to make them, I always cut a deeper groove with about 3 1/2 turns. But not needed at all of course, see 4. below. >2. Replace half shafts and hubs if necessary - it's mandatory that the >joints between half shaft & hub are press fit or taper- modified. *** The standard shaft/hub splines wear initially due to the hub rocking on the shaft, then when things get really bad the splines wear on their sides. The worst I saw had less than half the original width, on both hub and shaft splines!! Taper-fit shafts cannot, of course, rock in the hubs. >3. Seal half shaft & inside hub joint with silicone. Also, plug greaser hole in hub with silicone. *** New hubs, of UK manufacture anyway, have not been made with this hole for several years. A lot of people used to pump so much grease in here that it could not help but escape from the bearing carrier seal. >4. Use Roger Furneaux locking nuts with seals. If using his seal sleeve >(with epoxy) on the shaft you may skip #3. We have the rear axle housing >counterbored for seals after housing has been stripped during a restoration, >thus eliminating need for these nuts. Or use both seals on either end! *** Thanx for the plug! My seals are double lipped, and easily obtainable (inch sizing). The only seals that fit in the ends of the axle case are very narrow and the single lip is miniscule. Plus, most people want a solution that does not involve lugging the back axle to a machine shop. >5. Replace rear bearings with sealed C2 (closer tolerance) bearings. Use >bearing Locktite if necessary but not to take up LOOSE fit. *** The original bearings fitted to the T-series (and maybe MMM as well) were heavy duty types with 12 or 13 balls (such as M208) but the cheaper, lower load capacity 6208 with only 9 balls seems to be more popular for some reason. I would question the use of closer tolerance bearings: my one experience of these was that they began to break up very quickly. These are "single row light type rigid" bearings, not really suited to the application, and need the slight freedom of movement that a loose tolerance gives. Apart from using M208s the best upgrade is to use double row 4208 bearings, which are 5mm wider. >6. Set up spacing as per TC's Forever. Shim if necessary. *** Should not be necessary. Mike Sherrell has admitted to me that his drawing was exaggerated! >7. Make certain the diff is not over filled. Maybe this should be number 1! >8. We use Permatex anerobic sealant on the hub flanges now - no gasket. So >far so good. *** The racers in the UK have used "Instant Gasket" here (and elsewhere) for years. Typical gap between flanges is 6 thou, typical paper gasker with goo on both sides is 10 thou. Nuff said! >9. Clean old oil & yuck from inside of wheel hubs. Silicone the ends of all >the hub spokes to seal from the inside. *** If there is no oil in the hub, this is unnecessary - but do it anyway, it keeps water out. ***** If anyone wants lip-sealed hub nuts, PLS contact me off-list. They are 25 a set plus postage (say $41 total to the USA) at which price I won't get rich, but if a few more T-types don't get oil on the brakes, I can take some pleasure from that. ocTagonally Roger Tom Butler wrote: >> My TC is continuously leaking oil from the spokes. There was some discussion >> recently about tapered axles et. al. Help. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Wilsons Sandbox

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