Brake failure

Duncan · Post by **Duncan** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:54 am

Clive, do you really think Physics and Chemistry operate how google tells you? Duncan- CA -----------------------------------------

On Wed, 2/8/17, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure To: "Duncan" morelists@yahoo.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com, burburyclose@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2017, 5:34 AM Duncan, No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab. Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid. You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact. Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam). Could be fun though, because if it did and produced oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen Then the brake system may well explode ! Clive = ================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582 -- #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad p { margin:0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc #yiv7174294582hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} 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Clive P Sherriff · Post by **Clive P Sherriff** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:17 pm

Forget the water then, just use antifreeze ! Clive m mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] kallend@iit.edu [b]To:[/b] norman@frenchblat.com [b]Cc:[/b] csherriff99@gmail.com ; morelists@yahoo.com ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 3:28 PM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure I think you underestimate just how cold the US upper midwest can get in January. (-32) degrees C would need more than "a drop". _____________________________ John Kallend Professor Emeritus Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering Department of Physics IIT, Chicago On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 8:52 AM, Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com> wrote: John, drop of anti-freeze will cure that. May rot the rubber seals but the brakes would still work until then.[u][/u][u][/u]
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[b]Norman Verona[u][/u][u][/u][/b]
La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France[u][/u][u][/u]
Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44[u][/u][u][/u]
Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79[u][/u][u][/u]
Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)[u][/u][u][/u]
[u][/u][u][/u]
[b]From:[/b] John Kallend [mailto:kallend@iit.edu] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 15:44 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com> [b]Cc:[/b] Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com>; Duncan morelists@yahoo.com>; MG T-Series List mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure[u][/u][u][/u]
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Ummm. well, there is that FREEZING thing too. In a Chicago winter water might just be a problem.[u][/u][u][/u]
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_____________________________[u][/u][u][/u]
John Kallend[u][/u][u][/u]
Professor Emeritus[u][/u][u][/u]
Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering[u][/u][u][/u]
Department of Physics[u][/u][u][/u]
IIT, Chicago[u][/u][u][/u]
[u][/u][u][/u]
On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 8:40 AM, Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com> wrote:[u][/u][u][/u]
The only reason we don t use water in our braking system is due to the corrosion that it would cause. I ve used water to get home after a roadside fix of a broken brake pipe (mole grips on pipe)[u][/u][u][/u]
[u][/u][u][/u]
[b]Norman Verona[/b][u][/u][u][/u]
La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France[u][/u][u][/u]
Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44[u][/u][u][/u]
Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79[u][/u][u][/u]
Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)[u][/u][u][/u]
[u][/u][u][/u]
[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]John Kallend kallend@iit.edu [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 15:05 [b]To:[/b] Clive P Sherriff csherriff99@gmail.com> [b]Cc:[/b] Duncan morelists@yahoo.com>; MG T-Series List mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com>; James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure[u][/u][u][/u]
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The bulk modulus of water is 2.15 GPa. For all practical purposes in a braking system it is incompressible..[u][/u][u][/u]
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Most commercial hydraulic fluids are in the same ballpark.[u][/u][u][/u]
[u][/u][u][/u]
_____________________________[u][/u][u][/u]
John Kallend[u][/u][u][/u]
Professor Emeritus[u][/u][u][/u]
Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering[u][/u][u][/u]
Department of Physics[u][/u][u][/u]
IIT, Chicago[u][/u][u][/u]
[u][/u][u][/u]
On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 7:34 AM, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:[u][/u][u][/u]
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Duncan,[u][/u][u][/u]
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No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab.[u][/u][u][/u]
[u][/u][u][/u]
Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid.   You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact.[u][/u][u][/u]
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Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam).   [u][/u][u][/u]
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Could be fun though, because if it did and produced oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen    Then the brake system may well explode ![u][/u][u][/u]
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Clive[u][/u][u][/u]
= ============================== ===[u][/u][u][/u]
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----- Original Message ----- [u][/u][u][/u]
[b]From:[/b] morelists@yahoo.com+[mg-tabc] [u][/u][u][/u]
[b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com [u][/u][u][/u]
[b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM[u][/u][u][/u]
[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure[u][/u][u][/u]
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Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .----------------------------- --------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston [u][/u][u][/u]
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Bill Hyatt · Post by **Bill Hyatt** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:12 pm

Guys,

Hydraulic brake technology has been mainstream for 75 years in daily drivers. During that time some improvements such as anti-lockup et. al. have been made.. Basically, with proper maintenance it is virtually fool proof. Catastrophic failures are very very rare, though not impossible. Usually traced to maintenance problem, rarely to a design failure.

Bill

TC 4926

Odessa, Fl

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, February 08, 2017 2:44 PM [b]To:[/b] Stephen D Stierman; Norman Verona; 'Steve S'; 'MG tabcgroups' [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

Steve,

you say >> Unless of course all the hydraulics have just been rebuilt/replaced

I'd say that was the most important reason to check absolutely everything !

(Unless I'd rebuilt them of course !

Clive

= ==================================

----- Original Message -----
[b]From:[/b] morgan7709@sbcglobal.net%20[mg-tabc]
[b]To:[/b] norman@frenchblat.com ; mail@mgnuts.com ; MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com
[b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 2:56 PM
[b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

Norman,
I am not necessarily debating your premise that the MC is at fault, what I am saying is before the OP decides that is the problem, he ought take a good close look at the rest of system to be sure nothing else has gone south. Unless of course all the hydraulics have just been rebuilt/replaced which still doesn't guarantee that there is not a problem. Additionally you are taking his description of events at face value and his explanation may not be quite the same as mine should I experience a similar situation.
Steve TC2911
[b]From:[/b] "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] 'Stephen D Stierman' morgan7709@sbcglobal.net>; 'Steve S' mail@mgnuts.com>; 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 7, 2017 9:19 AM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

Steve, I agree. However the report said the pedal was hard one day and no brakes at all the next. A master cylinder with mixed air and fluid will give a spongy pedal which will pump up to hard is pumped. However a cylinder which is completely empty will have a pedal which goes to the floor and will not pump up.

Do you disagree?

[b]Norman Verona[/b]
La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France
Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44
Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79
Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

[b]From:[/b] Stephen D Stierman [morgan7709@sbcglobal.net] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 12:19 [b]To:[/b] Norman Verona norman@frenchblat.com>; 'Steve S' mail@mgnuts.com>; 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

Not so Norman,
As Steve points out and I have found personally, enough air entering via wheel cylinder(s) and a bit of loss at the same place, will cause a peddle to become softer over time, eventually causing brake actuation to become almost nil.
Steve TC2911

From: "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> [b]To:[/b] 'Steve S' mail@mgnuts.com>; 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 7, 2017 4:25 AM [b]Subject:[/b] RE: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

Steve, the point is the OP said there was no signs of a leak. To get total brake failure the master cylinder must empty completely. And to get sudden total failure the leak must be substantial. I have suggested that before going for the unusual, with the master cylinder the wheel cylinders and the brake pipes are inspected. It would appear we are talking a substantial leak so it should be clearly visible.

[b]Norman Verona[/b]
La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France
Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44
Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79
Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 09:25 [b]To:[/b] 'MG tabcgroups' MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com> [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

It takes very little air to cause massive brake fade. When you bleed the brakes, each pump yields a lot of fluid with a small amount of bubbles. However the brakes go from soft to firm. If you somehow had enough air coming in from below to displace 3/4" of fluid in the cylinder and overflow it, you'd probably completely empty all four cylinders and half of the hard lines!
- Steve Simmons, TC8975

On 2/6/2017 11:49 PM, 'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] wrote:

Steve,

In which case the fluid would be overflowing from the master.

[b]Norman Verona[/b]
La Foie, 49520, Noellet, France
Tel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44
Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79
Website: www FrenchBlat com (put dots in the spaces)

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]Steve S mail@mgnuts.com [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] 07 February 2017 02:48 [b]To:[/b] MG tabcgroups MG-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

Agreed. Air can definitely come in past the wheel cylinder cups. No leak necessary. If the master cylinder returns faster than the brake shoes, air can be pulled in. Ensure the brake springs are all in correct working condition to prevent it from happening.
- Steve Simmons, TC8975

On 2/6/2017 5:26 PM, Stephen D Stierman morgan7709@sbcglobal.net [mg-tabc] wrote:

I had a continual problems with air entering the braking system, likely comi! ng via wheel cylinder(s) that may have been seeping slightly, don't discard that end of the system as the problem. Bleeding would result in a hard peddle that over time would become softer in use.
Steve TC2911

[b]From:[/b] "James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com [b]To:[/b] Mg-Tabc mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, February 6, 2017 5:02 PM [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston

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Gene Gillam · Post by **Gene Gillam** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:18 pm

"Catastrophic failures are very very rare, though not impossible. Usually traced to maintenance problem, ..."

Or pissed off spouses or unpaid loan sharks... Gene

Pardon the brevity, this was sent from my iPad

John Kallend · Post by **John Kallend** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:55 pm

I have some confidence in my knowledge of physics and chemistry, having taught both at college level. _____________________________John KallendProfessor EmeritusDepartment of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace EngineeringDepartment of PhysicsIIT, Chicago

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: [u][/u] Clive, do you really think Physics and Chemistry operate how google tells you? Duncan- CA ------------------------------ ----------- On Wed, 2/8/17, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure To: "Duncan" morelists@yahoo.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com, burburyclose@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2017, 5:34 AM Duncan, No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab. Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid. You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact. Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam). Could be fun though, because if it did and produced oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen Then the brake system may well explode ! Clive = ============================== === ----- Original Message ----- From: Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .----------------------------- --------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582 -- #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial; margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%; font-weight:700;line-height: 122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad p { margin:0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration: none;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc #yiv7174294582hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size: 78%;line-height:122%;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc .yiv7174294582ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size: 11px;padding:10px 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582activity { background-color:#e0ecee; 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MERLIN GARAGES · Post by **MERLIN GARAGES** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:12 pm

These are alternative facts everyone know that ! To our British friends i know who Donald Trump reminds me of - Hughie Green both repeat their sentences, sound smarmy and are patronizing as well as having other obnoxious traits. Anyway he has now brought another British constitutional peculiarity to public knowledge the power of the speaker ! Nelly the Elephant packed her trunk and said goodbye to the Circus off she went .................................................... David TA 0455 UK [b]From:[/b] kallend@iit.edu [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:24 PM [b]To:[/b] morelists@yahoo.com [b]Cc:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; csherriff99@gmail.com [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure I have some confidence in my knowledge of physics and chemistry, having taught both at college level. _____________________________ John Kallend Professor Emeritus Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering Department of Physics IIT, Chicago On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

[u][/u]
Clive, do you really think Physics and Chemistry operate how google tells you? Duncan- CA ------------------------------ ----------- On Wed, 2/8/17, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure To: "Duncan" morelists@yahoo.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com, burburyclose@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2017, 5:34 AM Duncan, No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab. Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid. You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact. Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam). Could be fun though, because if it did and produced oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen Then the brake system may well explode ! Clive = ============================== === ----- Original Message ----- From: Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .----------------------------- --------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582 -- #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial; margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%; font-weight:700;line-height: 122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad p { margin:0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration: none;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc #yiv7174294582hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size: 78%;line-height:122%;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc .yiv7174294582ad { margin-bottom:10px;padding:0 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582actions { font-family:Verdana;font-size: 11px;padding:10px 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582activity { background-color:#e0ecee; 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Bob Grunau · Post by **Bob Grunau** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:15 pm

Children, children, can we give the brake failure thing a rest and get back to Bishop Cam??

Or at least take your sparring off this site.

Thanks,

Bob

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]John Kallend kallend@iit.edu [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 4:25 PM [b]To:[/b] Duncan [b]Cc:[/b] MG T-Series List; Clive P Sherriff [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

I have some confidence in my knowledge of physics and chemistry, having taught both at college level.

_____________________________

John Kallend

Professor Emeritus

Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering

Department of Physics

IIT, Chicago

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Clive, do you really think Physics and Chemistry operate how google tells you? Duncan- CA -----------------------------------------

On Wed, 2/8/17, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure To: "Duncan" morelists@yahoo.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com, burburyclose@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2017, 5:34 AM Duncan, No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab. Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid. You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact. Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam). Could be fun though, because if it did and produced oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen Then the brake system may well explode ! Clive = ================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582 -- #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad p { margin:0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc #yiv7174294582hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} 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motionwear · Post by **motionwear** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:34 pm

Good idea, Bob. My 1950 Hillman Minx Mk IV has a Bishops Cam steering box just like the TC. Same slop in the steering box, though it's not bad - or worn very much, as the car only has 15,000 miles on it. With it's frame/body construction though, there's never any wander down the road like many TCs experience.

Of course, my TCs don't seem to wander down the road, so maybe it's just the house they live in now.

Tom Wilson Zionsville IN

murray arundell · Post by **murray arundell** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:36 pm

Yeah, let's talk about Trump..... or we'll maybe not Sent from my iPad

On 8 Feb 2017, at 09:15, 'Bob Grunau' grunau.garage@sympatico.ca [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Children, children, can we give the brake failure thing a rest and get back to Bishop Cam??

Or at least take your sparring off this site.

Thanks,

Bob

[b]From:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]John Kallend kallend@iit.edu [mg-tabc] [b]Sent:[/b] Tuesday, February 07, 2017 4:25 PM [b]To:[/b] Duncan [b]Cc:[/b] MG T-Series List; Clive P Sherriff [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure

I have some confidence in my knowledge of physics and chemistry, having taught both at college level.

_____________________________

John Kallend

Professor Emeritus

Department of Mechanical, Materials and Aerospace Engineering

Department of Physics

IIT, Chicago

On Tue, Feb 7, 2017 at 1:51 PM, Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Clive, do you really think Physics and Chemistry operate how google tells you? Duncan- CA ----------------------------------------- On Wed, 2/8/17, 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure To: "Duncan" morelists@yahoo.com>, mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com, burburyclose@yahoo.com Date: Wednesday, February 8, 2017, 5:34 AM Duncan, No, physics and chemistry don't work that way, in anyone's Lab. Water in the system does reduce braking, but only because the water is more compressible than brake fluid. You could probably get quite reasonable braking by draining all the fluid and replacing it with water, or kerosine, or malt whisky, about any liquid in fact. Anyway, even boiling does not release oxygen from water, it produces water gas (steam). Could be fun though, because if it did and produced oxygen, it would also have to produce hydrogen Then the brake system may well explode ! Clive = ================================= ----- Original Message ----- From: Duncan morelists@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com ; burburyclose@yahoo.com Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2017 9:14 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Might have never been properly bled when brakes last serviced. And remember that H2O contains oxygen, and H20 will get into the TC system's fluid, and it does not require a chemistry lab or textbook perfect boiling of the brake fluid to liberate some of oxygen from the water. It just happens, from pressure and other things.. Another good reason to flush your system every couple years and put in fresh brake fluid. It is good to be constantly paranoid about potential brake problems in these cars, as the brake system is not all that great from a modern safety standpoint. The TC parking brake, on the other hand, is superb. Duncan- CA To: "Mg-Tabc" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Date: Monday, February 6, 2017, 2:02 PM .-------------------------------------------- On Mon, 2/6/17, James Davis burburyclose@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Subject: [mg-tabc] Brake Failure Thanks to all of you for your ideas. I checked the brake lines,MC, etc with no indication of leakage. Then I bled the line out. Much air in there. The brakes came back after bleeding. Perhaps when I tested the brakes HARD the day before, I explosed some intermittent crack etc in the system which only shows up with hard use. I plan to give it a rigorous test after my diff comes back from being worked over. I'm on pins and needles driving it now and will try to break the fault during the next hard test. I'll keep the group informed. Thanks again. Jim Davis TC 7225 Houston This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582 -- #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp #yiv7174294582ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad { padding:0 0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad p { margin:0;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-mkp .yiv7174294582ad a { color:#0000ff;text-decoration:none;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc { font-family:Arial;} #yiv7174294582 #yiv7174294582ygrp-sponsor #yiv7174294582ygrp-lc #yiv7174294582hd { margin:10px 0px;font-weight:700;font-size:78%;line-height:122%;} 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Charles Hill · Post by **Charles Hill** » Tue Feb 07, 2017 4:04 pm

Please not. Charles Hill On 2/7/2017 5:36 PM, Murray Arundell arundell@ghs.com.au [mg-tabc] wrote:

Yeah, let's talk about Trump..... or we'll maybe not Sent from my iPad On 8 Feb 2017, at 09:15, 'Bob Grunau' grunau.garage@sympatico.ca [mg-tabc] mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Wilsons Sandbox

Brake failure

Re: Brake Failure

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