Re: Seat Belts

[Phil]

Exactly.  I cover more miles on a bicycle than in a car each week, and that is one's only safety 

Respect you ass for it bears you.

On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:58, "'Norman Verona' norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc]" wrote:

 
I think it s not the cars that are dangerous but the drivers. Learn and practise defensive driving and you ll be much safer.  Norman VeronaLa Foie, 49520, Noellet, FranceTel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79Web: www.frenchblat.comMG Midget TC 10178  From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Phil mgpsmith@att.net [mg-tabc]
Sent: 20 June 2015 18:52
To: Tweed
Cc: Allan Chalmers; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Re: Seat Belts    To add one bit, a paraphrase from a former acquaintance from the track, an engineer who designed seat/ restraint interfaces for the US auto industry:  seat belts keep you in the safety cell of the modern car.  Shoulder belts keep you out of the thoracic surgeons hands.   Air bags keep you out of the ENT/orthodontics hands.  Note this was all predicated on an engineered safety cell for the occupants.    As much as I love driving my TC, my safety equipment is the same I use on my bicycle while riding to work: my brain.  The TC might ( and I do mean 'might' ) be more dangerous on public roads than a bicycle, but I'll bet they're not far apart.

Respect you ass for it bears you.  
On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:12, "Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc]" wrote:  The most sense I've read regarding seat belts in a TC, thanks Phil.  From: "Phil mgpsmith@att.net [mg-tabc]"
To: Allan Chalmers
Cc: "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Saturday, 20 June 2015, 16:14
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Re: Seat Belts    Restraint systems are integrated with seating and structure.  I too have hit hard, broke steering rack free from its moorings broke the steering wheel, broke the chin bar on my helmet...while wearing 5-point harness in an SCCA-approved full cage-equipped MGBGT with race seats and a fuel cell (this was just before HANS devices were ubiquitous.).  If you want the TC to be "safe" then you need to cage it, put proper chairs in it, and good restraints.  Not to mention reinforce the frame, redesign the engine mounts, attend to fuel and electrical safety, and install side beams.    The TC is not a car for those primarily worried about safety.  My opinion is that belts (2 or 3 point) as a stand-alone effort offer only the delusion of safety.  (If you're belting in to reduce seat slide/enhance car control i cannot argue).  Perhaps it's better to be thrown form the car (so should we wear helmets?).

Respect you ass for it bears you.  
On Jun 20, 2015, at 0:07, "Allan Chalmers allanchalmers@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" wrote:  Ask Terry Sanders to send a pic of his steering wheel after an idiot pulled out of a side street in front of him. Ask him about his broken sternum.  Ask me about a VW crash where my head broke the steering wheel.   Please use shoulder belts - we are a rare and aging species.  Allan Chalmers TA TC (no more VW bugs)    No virus found in this message.
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Posted by: "Norman Verona" Reply via web post norman@frenchblat.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bmg-tabc%5D%20Re%3A%20Seat%20Belts mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com?subject=RE%3A%20%5Bmg-tabc%5D%20Re%3A%20Seat%20Belts Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (29) Check out the automatic photo album with 1 photo(s) from this topic.

[Mark M]

Well, after all, it is a wooden car with the gas tank to act as the rear bumper, so...   ~Mark TC8126   Rainy REALLY RAINY Ohio

----- Original Message ----- From: allanchalmers@yahoo.com [mg-tabc] To: mgpsmith@att.net ; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Re: Seat Belts
 
Well stated Phil.  If we wanted to be perfectly safe, we wouldn't get in any moving vehicle.  Talked to a friend yesterday, who looked at my car (at GofWest) and told of his wife's desire for an MG.  They took a test ride and when large truck wheels stood higher than the car, they decided against it.
We are usually relatively good in a front end crash because we have two frame rail ram rods out there.  Peter Zernial's crash in Scotland a case in point.  Terry Sanders crash I mentioned was a real thumper, with the seat back flying out of the car.  A broken sternum was relatively minor.
Allan Chalmers
From: Phil
To: Tweed
Cc: Allan Chalmers ; "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Saturday, June 20, 2015 9:52 AM
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Re: Seat Belts

To add one bit, a paraphrase from a former acquaintance from the track, an engineer who designed seat/ restraint interfaces for the US auto industry:  seat belts keep you in the safety cell of the modern car.  Shoulder belts keep you out of the thoracic surgeons hands.   Air bags keep you out of the ENT/orthodontics hands.  Note this was all predicated on an engineered safety cell for the occupants.  
As much as I love driving my TC, my safety equipment is the same I use on my bicycle while riding to work: my brain.  The TC might ( and I do mean 'might' ) be more dangerous on public roads than a bicycle, but I'll bet they're not far apart.

Respect you ass for it bears you.




On Jun 20, 2015, at 12:12, "Tweed lizandtweed@yahoo.co.uk [mg-tabc]" wrote:

  The most sense I've read regarding seat belts in a TC, thanks Phil.   From: "Phil mgpsmith@att.net [mg-tabc]"
To: Allan Chalmers
Cc: "mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com"
Sent: Saturday, 20 June 2015, 16:14
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Re: Seat Belts

  Restraint systems are integrated with seating and structure.  I too have hit hard, broke steering rack free from its moorings broke the steering wheel, broke the chin bar on my helmet...while wearing 5-point harness in an SCCA-approved full cage-equipped MGBGT with race seats and a fuel cell (this was just before HANS devices were ubiquitous.).  If you want the TC to be "safe" then you need to cage it, put proper chairs in it, and good restraints.  Not to mention reinforce the frame, redesign the engine mounts, attend to fuel and electrical safety, and install side beams.  
The TC is not a car for those primarily worried about safety.  My opinion is that belts (2 or 3 point) as a stand-alone effort offer only the delusion of safety.  (If you're belting in to reduce seat slide/enhance car control i cannot argue).  Perhaps it's better to be thrown form the car (so should we wear helmets?).

Respect you ass for it bears you.


On Jun 20, 2015, at 0:07, "Allan Chalmers allanchalmers@yahoo.com [mg-tabc]" wrote:

  Ask Terry Sanders to send a pic of his steering wheel after an idiot pulled out of a side street in front of him. Ask him about his broken sternum.
Ask me about a VW crash where my head broke the steering wheel. 

Please use shoulder belts - we are a rare and aging species.

Allan Chalmers TA TC (no more VW bugs)

[Robert F.Butson]

Thats why a T Type is  called a coffin on four harps...... Bob,Wales UK.

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[DG WHITE]

Attachments :

That phrase rings a bell, Bob.  So looked back through a load of clippings from the 1960s and Wilson-McComb mentioned it in an article on wire wheels in the 5th Sept 1968edition of "Autocar".   Made me look through other clippings saved at the time.  ( Well I was a keen young man at the time, saving everything to do with TCs ! )  Another article was from the February 1967 edition of "Car & Driver". which contained phrasessuch as  " no TC ever went down a straight road in a straight line "  and  "the ride was hard butso were the Drivers ". !   Reminds me that we used to say that if you went over a penny youcould tell the date on it by the bumps !!RegardsDaveTC 0720

----Original message----
From : mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com
Date : 21/06/2015 - 05:57 (GMTDT)
To : mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Subject : [mg-tabc] Re Seat belts

 
Thats why a T Type is  called a coffin on four harps...... Bob,Wales UK.

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[Peter Roberts]

This discussion is incredible!  Did you regress 60 years and dredge up all the fervent letters to editors of road magazines that railed against the onset of laws mandating safety belts?  Some is the thread is almost word for word.   Last Fall, we lost a wonderful l competitor and a loving family man.  He was driving a PA, and driving it very well as he usually did.  A five point belt was in place, he wore an approved fire suit and gloves, his helmet was up to current Snell standards.  In a power corner he slipped two wheels into the dirt....and then made the classic mistake.  He jerked the car back on the track.. much as you would if you had veered off public lane, it s instinctive to immediately correct.  Despite the reinforced roll bar which nicely withstood the multiple rolls of the car, he did not survive   1. Absent seat belts, he would have been thrown from the car on the first of three rolls  At that point we estimate the car was inverted about thirty feet in the air  At a speed of at least 45 to 60 mph he would have been thrown to the asphalt surface of the track.. If you are interested in observing this kind of carnage, check the vintage crash videos on UTube. 2. Unfortunately, this competitor chafed at his seat belt harness and preferred to keep it comfortable.  Comfortable translated to about three to six inches of play as he landed in his head.   Here in the United States, and I know there is a similar vigorous on-going debate in UK, those of us involved with racing safety have carefully analyzed and debated what measures should be incorporated in to Vintage Rules to beef up car safety.  After much consideration by some highly responsible people knowledgeable about all aspects of vintage cars, we have reached two working conclusions.  Let me emphasis that these ware working conclusions. 1. Retrofitting the hard lessons we have learned about car fabrication for race safety ( full roll cages, frame re-enforcements, side impact bars, fuel cells, it s a long list) is mostly going to be impractical at best and with some precious cars it would be impossible.  A Bugatti Type 57 in full roll cage?  On your bankroll? 2. Limiting vintage racing to special tracks with huge runoffs simply is impractible for many obvious reasons.  And the huge run-offs are illusory in offering a sufficient margin of safety. 3  Where we are now focusing our attention is on you, the Vintage Driver.  I will spare you the obvious and simply say that your safety is and always has been your exercise of your common sense.   Our discussions are continuing and if you would like to add your two cents, please write me direct at MGTC@comcast.net   Regards,   _peter

[Norman Verona]

I know the saying if you drove over half a crown you could tell if it was heads or tails  Norman VeronaLa Foie, 49520, Noellet, FranceTel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79Web: www.frenchblat.comMG Midget TC 10178  From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of DG WHITE dg573@btinternet.com [mg-tabc]
Sent: 21 June 2015 15:40
To: Robert F.Butson; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Re Seat belts       That phrase rings a bell, Bob.  So looked back through a load of clippings from the 1960s and Wilson-McComb mentioned it in an article on wire wheels in the 5th Sept 1968edition of "Autocar".   Made me look through other clippings saved at the time.  ( Well I was a keen young man at the time, saving everything to do with TCs ! )  Another article was from the February 1967 edition of "Car & Driver". which contained phrasessuch as  " no TC ever went down a straight road in a straight line "  and  "the ride was hard butso were the Drivers ". !   Reminds me that we used to say that if you went over a penny youcould tell the date on it by the bumps !!RegardsDaveTC 0720          

 ----Original message----
From : mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com
Date : 21/06/2015 - 05:57 (GMTDT)
To : mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Subject : [mg-tabc] Re Seat belts

  Thats why a T Type is  called a coffin on four harps...... Bob,Wales UK.  
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[Norman Verona]

Peter,  I think you ve said what I said. It s not practical to make a pre 1970 s car as safe as the cars are now.  Fitting seat belts to a TC is a fraction of what needs doing to protect the driver and passenger. Doing everything is not practical.  So learn to drive better and keep away from trouble.  I know 2 people in the Caterham community who had big impacts. One never wore belts and was thrown out of the car and broke an arm and shoulder. He was better 8 weeks later. The other was belted in and skidded sideways into a lamp post. He died from the impact because he could not move away from the impact (held in a 4-point harness)  I will not be fitting seat belts to my TC but I will drive defensively and keep away from trouble.  I ve had one accident in the past 30 years and that was deemed to be the other parties fault 100%  Norman VeronaLa Foie, 49520, Noellet, FranceTel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79Web: www.frenchblat.comMG Midget TC 10178  From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 'Peter Roberts' mgtc@comcast.net [mg-tabc]
Sent: 21 June 2015 18:29
To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [mg-tabc] Re: Re Seat belts    This discussion is incredible!  Did you regress 60 years and dredge up all the fervent letters to editors of road magazines that railed against the onset of laws mandating safety belts?  Some is the thread is almost word for word. Last Fall, we lost a wonderful l competitor and a loving family man.  He was driving a PA, and driving it very well as he usually did.  A five point belt was in place, he wore an approved fire suit and gloves, his helmet was up to current Snell standards.  In a power corner he slipped two wheels into the dirt....and then made the classic mistake.  He jerked the car back on the track.. much as you would if you had veered off public lane, it s instinctive to immediately correct.  Despite the reinforced roll bar which nicely withstood the multiple rolls of the car, he did not survive 1. Absent seat belts, he would have been thrown from the car on the first of three rolls  At that point we estimate the car was inverted about thirty feet in the air  At a speed of at least 45 to 60 mph he would have been thrown to the asphalt surface of the track.. If you are interested in observing this kind of carnage, check the vintage crash videos on UTube.2. Unfortunately, this competitor chafed at his seat belt harness and preferred to keep it comfortable.  Comfortable translated to about three to six inches of play as he landed in his head. Here in the United States, and I know there is a similar vigorous on-going debate in UK, those of us involved with racing safety have carefully analyzed and debated what measures should be incorporated in to Vintage Rules to beef up car safety.  After much consideration by some highly responsible people knowledgeable about all aspects of vintage cars, we have reached two working conclusions.  Let me emphasis that these ware working conclusions.1. Retrofitting the hard lessons we have learned about car fabrication for race safety ( full roll cages, frame re-enforcements, side impact bars, fuel cells, it s a long list) is mostly going to be impractical at best and with some precious cars it would be impossible.  A Bugatti Type 57 in full roll cage?  On your bankroll?2. Limiting vintage racing to special tracks with huge runoffs simply is impractible for many obvious reasons.  And the huge run-offs are illusory in offering a sufficient margin of safety.3  Where we are now focusing our attention is on you, the Vintage Driver.  I will spare you the obvious and simply say that your safety is and always has been your exercise of your common sense. Our discussions are continuing and if you would like to add your two cents, please write me direct at MGTC@comcast.net Regards, _peter No virus found in this message.
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[Stephen D Stierman]

I have lap belts only in my TC, same in my Morgan, I drive carefully realizing these cars were made a long time ago and so was I.  Your choice or not, I just prefer to have them and I can tie a couple of grandkids together and take them for ice cream, never exceeding 30 mph per their mother and the light.
Easily installed, outer belt bolted thru the side tub to chassis mounting bolt and flange and inner bolted thru the floor thru the tubular cross member behind the seats.Steve TC2911

[Murray G Arundell]

As many of you ll know my TC gets a lot of country miles here DownUnder.  Often a return trip can be well over a thousand miles.  I can be a long way to anywhere down here.  In all my years of TC driving I ve never had seat belts fitted.  Lately I ve come to the conclusion that perhaps one should have belts installed.  Whats the group s thoughts on this and which way to go?  Lap, Lap/Sash or Full Harness?
Murray ArundellBrisbane, Australia

[mgtc0604]

Murray,  Your question is evocative of a lengthy discussion held by our Vintage Racing group following a racing fatality involving a PA.  The driver had a full harness, but he really was uncomfortable and did not tighten it up properly.  Course workers on the scene reported that, as he  flipped in the air, they could clearly see that his shoulders were above the windshield. He did not survive a broken neck.  The discussion focused on safety equipment for Vintage cars and went on for several months and extended to other Vintage Racing organizations in Europe.  The consensus was that it was mostly impractical to retrofit modern race safety equipment into 50-90 year old cars.  Consider the TC steering shaft and its probable trajectory in a frontal crash.  Retrofit a collapsible shaft?  Install a roll cage in a Lola T70?  Crush bumpers on a  Bugatti Tipo 57?  The place where we wound up was looking at the driver himself.  The conclusion was that the driver must know the limits…. Of his car…And of himself.  Far more than any six point harness, roll hoops, and crush zones, the driver is the greatest safety device.  Regarding your question about belts, I offer two considerations:What do you expect the belt to accomplish?  Will it prevent you from being ejected from the car?  Probably, especially if a shoulder restraint is involved.  Will it protect you in a roll-over? No. Only the Good Lord can do that.  Will it protect you from mashing your head through the windshield? Likely no more that the steering wheel does now (cf. steering shaft).Do you understand that proper use of the belts requires that you bring them up full tight, and then tighter?  (Even a tight harness has about 3 inches of play under stress.)  Will you religiously use the belt and fully tighten?  Are you willing to be that uncomfortable? Mind that the type of belting you are considering is antique and obsolete.  The shock tightening belts and air bags in your daily bear only a remote resemblance.  A thousand miles through the Blue Mountains would be a dream come true for me.  I have driven a bit of them and found it quite glorious.  I do envy your repeated access.  As you enjoy yourself, please do keep in mind our mantra; a driver must know his limits and the limits of his car.  Very happy motoring!  _Peter