After hearing all the wonderful comments on the badges I was
anxiously awaiting mine. Unfortunately I am still waiting. How were
they shipped, can we look into my missing badge.
Bruce Cynamon
Re: Badges
-
cynamonb@aol.com
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 10:32 am
Badges
Jim
I received my badge today, it was well worth waiting for!!
Bruce Cynamon
I received my badge today, it was well worth waiting for!!
Bruce Cynamon
-
Austin R. Baer
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Wed Dec 22, 1999 9:36 am
Re: Badges
As the designer of the MG-TABC badge, I would like to let the members know that I am also interested in furnishing the badges that Jim Shade refers to in his recent announcement. I am in possession of the original artwork in six-color separation form, which has never been turned over to MG-TABC because there has never been agreement between Jim Shade and me about either the quality required of a vendor or the price at which these badges should be made available to the members. The original badges were produced in Taiwan at a cost of about $15 each. I asked for and received nothing, and paid for my own badges.
Because the badge design has been both redrawn and reoffered (both without permission) from my original design, I have no choice but to warn the group that:
1) MG-TABC is in danger of violating international copyright laws by participating in this unauthorized use of club property.
2) Ordering unauthorized badges would create an open season on the use of this design by anyone who chooses to profit from the use of club property by making beer mugs, key chains or dish towels using any other variation of the original design that his fancy dictates.
3) The badge as redrawn cannot possibly be reproduced in anything resembling the original because it is not designed for any known badge-making process.
4) The quality of the badges that may be furnished will be extremely poor, because the technical requirements of production are stringent and inconsistent with the artwork as posted by Jim Shade.
The currently proposed artwork is totally inadequate for cloisonn reproduction and must be redrawn first by the vendor, a needless and risky step which was anticipated in the original badge development. Even with artwork specifically designed for badge-production, I had to reject the original samples because of poor quality. I was able to approve the subsequent run (without change to the artwork) after the vendor got his act together. There will be no comparable quality control for the Jim Shade offering.
For those of you who do not know me or the history of our badge, I offer the following:
I am the 81 year-old founder and first Head of the Department of Product Design at North Carolina State University, after beginning my teaching activities in the Machine Design Division of the Department of Mechanical Engineering at M.I.T. I know what I'm talking about, after almost 60 years of product design and development, including approximately 75 patents including the continuous geared hinge, currently manufactured by every major architectural hardware manufacturer in the US. I have owned, hill-climbed and raced four TCs over a span of 50 years, and I was introduced to the group by Bob Grunau as member number 33.
I have no interest in making the original badges into a collector's item because they may never be properly reproduced, which has nothing to do with the merits of the original except to acknowledge that it was approved by the members at the time of its issue. Like any other badge, it can, no doubt, be supplanted by another, better design. However, it has become emblematic of MG-TABC. To say that I am angered by Jim Shades' precipitous and ill-advised current offer is an understatement, because we had discussed this at length over a year ago before without resolution of the price, sourcing, oversight or the resolution of the profit. In my view, any excess beyond the cost of manufacture should, in my view, be only enough for mailing expenses. I would try for a target price of about $25, including domestic postage, perhaps with foreign shipment subsidized by a hoped-for very modest profit. Any excess should be turned over to Walter Prechsl for website maintenance. This was not the case with the original run.
To the extent that I will gladly make use of my current business connections in Asia to obtain a quality badge, welcoming any interested members to help in the physical distribution of the badges and the accounting of the proceeds, I would welcome any of the members to contact me off list at lazybear@alum.mit.edu to 1) express interest in one or more badges, and 2) let me know if you would like to help. As you can imagine, I no longer have the energy or time to devote to this project, but I would like to see permanent, MG-TABC resolution to this long-standing thorn in my side.
Obviously, nothing will be done until there is sufficient interest. I will be happy to reply to any emails with an attached photograph (in high resolution at actual size) of the original badge.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Because the badge design has been both redrawn and reoffered (both without permission) from my original design, I have no choice but to warn the group that:
1) MG-TABC is in danger of violating international copyright laws by participating in this unauthorized use of club property.
2) Ordering unauthorized badges would create an open season on the use of this design by anyone who chooses to profit from the use of club property by making beer mugs, key chains or dish towels using any other variation of the original design that his fancy dictates.
3) The badge as redrawn cannot possibly be reproduced in anything resembling the original because it is not designed for any known badge-making process.
4) The quality of the badges that may be furnished will be extremely poor, because the technical requirements of production are stringent and inconsistent with the artwork as posted by Jim Shade.
The currently proposed artwork is totally inadequate for cloisonn reproduction and must be redrawn first by the vendor, a needless and risky step which was anticipated in the original badge development. Even with artwork specifically designed for badge-production, I had to reject the original samples because of poor quality. I was able to approve the subsequent run (without change to the artwork) after the vendor got his act together. There will be no comparable quality control for the Jim Shade offering.
For those of you who do not know me or the history of our badge, I offer the following:
I am the 81 year-old founder and first Head of the Department of Product Design at North Carolina State University, after beginning my teaching activities in the Machine Design Division of the Department of Mechanical Engineering at M.I.T. I know what I'm talking about, after almost 60 years of product design and development, including approximately 75 patents including the continuous geared hinge, currently manufactured by every major architectural hardware manufacturer in the US. I have owned, hill-climbed and raced four TCs over a span of 50 years, and I was introduced to the group by Bob Grunau as member number 33.
I have no interest in making the original badges into a collector's item because they may never be properly reproduced, which has nothing to do with the merits of the original except to acknowledge that it was approved by the members at the time of its issue. Like any other badge, it can, no doubt, be supplanted by another, better design. However, it has become emblematic of MG-TABC. To say that I am angered by Jim Shades' precipitous and ill-advised current offer is an understatement, because we had discussed this at length over a year ago before without resolution of the price, sourcing, oversight or the resolution of the profit. In my view, any excess beyond the cost of manufacture should, in my view, be only enough for mailing expenses. I would try for a target price of about $25, including domestic postage, perhaps with foreign shipment subsidized by a hoped-for very modest profit. Any excess should be turned over to Walter Prechsl for website maintenance. This was not the case with the original run.
To the extent that I will gladly make use of my current business connections in Asia to obtain a quality badge, welcoming any interested members to help in the physical distribution of the badges and the accounting of the proceeds, I would welcome any of the members to contact me off list at lazybear@alum.mit.edu to 1) express interest in one or more badges, and 2) let me know if you would like to help. As you can imagine, I no longer have the energy or time to devote to this project, but I would like to see permanent, MG-TABC resolution to this long-standing thorn in my side.
Obviously, nothing will be done until there is sufficient interest. I will be happy to reply to any emails with an attached photograph (in high resolution at actual size) of the original badge.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-
FDShade@aol.com
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 1999 3:14 pm
Fwd: [mg-tabc] Re: Badges
Walter - What do you think about this? I thought Austin gave the T-ABC
group exclusive rights to the design?
Jim
____________________________________
From: lazybear@alum.mit.edu
To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1/8/2011 9:44:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
Subj: [mg-tabc] Re: Badges
As the designer of the MG-TABC badge, I would like to let the members know
that I am also interested in furnishing the badges that Jim Shade refers to
in his recent announcement. I am in possession of the original artwork in
six-color separation form, which has never been turned over to MG-TABC
because there has never been agreement between Jim Shade and me about either
the quality required of a vendor or the price at which these badges should be
made available to the members. The original badges were produced in Taiwan
at a cost of about $15 each. I asked for and received nothing, and paid
for my own badges.
Because the badge design has been both redrawn and reoffered (both without
permission) from my original design, I have no choice but to warn the
group that:
1) MG-TABC is in danger of violating international copyright laws by
participating in this unauthorized use of club property.
2) Ordering unauthorized badges would create an open season on the use of
this design by anyone who chooses to profit from the use of club property
by making beer mugs, key chains or dish towels using any other variation of
the original design that his fancy dictates.
3) The badge as redrawn cannot possibly be reproduced in anything
resembling the original because it is not designed for any known badge-making
process.
4) The quality of the badges that may be furnished will be extremely poor,
because the technical requirements of production are stringent and
inconsistent with the artwork as posted by Jim Shade.
The currently proposed artwork is totally inadequate for cloisonn
reproduction and must be redrawn first by the vendor, a needless and risky step
which was anticipated in the original badge development. Even with artwork
specifically designed for badge-production, I had to reject the original
samples because of poor quality. I was able to approve the subsequent run
(without change to the artwork) after the vendor got his act together. There
will be no comparable quality control for the Jim Shade offering.
For those of you who do not know me or the history of our badge, I offer
the following:
I am the 81 year-old founder and first Head of the Department of Product
Design at North Carolina State University, after beginning my teaching
activities in the Machine Design Division of the Department of Mechanical
Engineering at M.I.T. I know what I'm talking about, after almost 60 years of
product design and development, including approximately 75 patents including
the continuous geared hinge, currently manufactured by every major
architectural hardware manufacturer in the US. I have owned, hill-climbed and raced
four TCs over a span of 50 years, and I was introduced to the group by Bob
Grunau as member number 33.
I have no interest in making the original badges into a collector's item
because they may never be properly reproduced, which has nothing to do with
the merits of the original except to acknowledge that it was approved by
the members at the time of its issue. Like any other badge, it can, no doubt,
be supplanted by another, better design. However, it has become emblematic
of MG-TABC. To say that I am angered by Jim Shades' precipitous and
ill-advised current offer is an understatement, because we had discussed this at
length over a year ago before without resolution of the price, sourcing,
oversight or the resolution of the profit. In my view, any excess beyond the
cost of manufacture should, in my view, be only enough for mailing
expenses. I would try for a target price of about $25, including domestic postage,
perhaps with foreign shipment subsidized by a hoped-for very modest profit.
Any excess should be turned over to Walter Prechsl for website
maintenance. This was not the case with the original run.
To the extent that I will gladly make use of my current business
connections in Asia to obtain a quality badge, welcoming any interested members to
help in the physical distribution of the badges and the accounting of the
proceeds, I would welcome any of the members to contact me off list at
_lazybear@alum.mit.edu_ (mailto:lazybear@alum.mit.edu) to 1) express interest in
one or more badges, and 2) let me know if you would like to help. As you
can imagine, I no longer have the energy or time to devote to this project,
but I would like to see permanent, MG-TABC resolution to this long-standing
thorn in my side.
Obviously, nothing will be done until there is sufficient interest. I will
be happy to reply to any emails with an attached photograph (in high
resolution at actual size) of the original badge.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
group exclusive rights to the design?
Jim
____________________________________
From: lazybear@alum.mit.edu
To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 1/8/2011 9:44:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time
Subj: [mg-tabc] Re: Badges
As the designer of the MG-TABC badge, I would like to let the members know
that I am also interested in furnishing the badges that Jim Shade refers to
in his recent announcement. I am in possession of the original artwork in
six-color separation form, which has never been turned over to MG-TABC
because there has never been agreement between Jim Shade and me about either
the quality required of a vendor or the price at which these badges should be
made available to the members. The original badges were produced in Taiwan
at a cost of about $15 each. I asked for and received nothing, and paid
for my own badges.
Because the badge design has been both redrawn and reoffered (both without
permission) from my original design, I have no choice but to warn the
group that:
1) MG-TABC is in danger of violating international copyright laws by
participating in this unauthorized use of club property.
2) Ordering unauthorized badges would create an open season on the use of
this design by anyone who chooses to profit from the use of club property
by making beer mugs, key chains or dish towels using any other variation of
the original design that his fancy dictates.
3) The badge as redrawn cannot possibly be reproduced in anything
resembling the original because it is not designed for any known badge-making
process.
4) The quality of the badges that may be furnished will be extremely poor,
because the technical requirements of production are stringent and
inconsistent with the artwork as posted by Jim Shade.
The currently proposed artwork is totally inadequate for cloisonn
reproduction and must be redrawn first by the vendor, a needless and risky step
which was anticipated in the original badge development. Even with artwork
specifically designed for badge-production, I had to reject the original
samples because of poor quality. I was able to approve the subsequent run
(without change to the artwork) after the vendor got his act together. There
will be no comparable quality control for the Jim Shade offering.
For those of you who do not know me or the history of our badge, I offer
the following:
I am the 81 year-old founder and first Head of the Department of Product
Design at North Carolina State University, after beginning my teaching
activities in the Machine Design Division of the Department of Mechanical
Engineering at M.I.T. I know what I'm talking about, after almost 60 years of
product design and development, including approximately 75 patents including
the continuous geared hinge, currently manufactured by every major
architectural hardware manufacturer in the US. I have owned, hill-climbed and raced
four TCs over a span of 50 years, and I was introduced to the group by Bob
Grunau as member number 33.
I have no interest in making the original badges into a collector's item
because they may never be properly reproduced, which has nothing to do with
the merits of the original except to acknowledge that it was approved by
the members at the time of its issue. Like any other badge, it can, no doubt,
be supplanted by another, better design. However, it has become emblematic
of MG-TABC. To say that I am angered by Jim Shades' precipitous and
ill-advised current offer is an understatement, because we had discussed this at
length over a year ago before without resolution of the price, sourcing,
oversight or the resolution of the profit. In my view, any excess beyond the
cost of manufacture should, in my view, be only enough for mailing
expenses. I would try for a target price of about $25, including domestic postage,
perhaps with foreign shipment subsidized by a hoped-for very modest profit.
Any excess should be turned over to Walter Prechsl for website
maintenance. This was not the case with the original run.
To the extent that I will gladly make use of my current business
connections in Asia to obtain a quality badge, welcoming any interested members to
help in the physical distribution of the badges and the accounting of the
proceeds, I would welcome any of the members to contact me off list at
_lazybear@alum.mit.edu_ (mailto:lazybear@alum.mit.edu) to 1) express interest in
one or more badges, and 2) let me know if you would like to help. As you
can imagine, I no longer have the energy or time to devote to this project,
but I would like to see permanent, MG-TABC resolution to this long-standing
thorn in my side.
Obviously, nothing will be done until there is sufficient interest. I will
be happy to reply to any emails with an attached photograph (in high
resolution at actual size) of the original badge.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-
Rick Waters
- Posts: 52
- Joined: Fri Feb 25, 2005 9:12 pm
Re: Badges
Austin,
At age 81, I think you have nothing to gain by not authorizing the
production of the original badge. I am very disappointed that you have
taken the path that you have chosen, as I think this site is all about
cooperation, and it appears to me that you have not made sufficient
efforts to work with Jim to make the badge available.
And yes, I do believe in the value of intellectual property, etc. etc.
etc., but somehow, something has come off the rails here, and I think
you could have done more to make this a win-win situation.
-Rick, TC 7881
At age 81, I think you have nothing to gain by not authorizing the
production of the original badge. I am very disappointed that you have
taken the path that you have chosen, as I think this site is all about
cooperation, and it appears to me that you have not made sufficient
efforts to work with Jim to make the badge available.
And yes, I do believe in the value of intellectual property, etc. etc.
etc., but somehow, something has come off the rails here, and I think
you could have done more to make this a win-win situation.
-Rick, TC 7881
On 11-01-08 9:44 AM, Austin R. Baer wrote:
>
> As the designer of the MG-TABC badge, I would like to let the members
> know that I am also interested in furnishing the badges that Jim Shade
> refers to in his recent announcement. I am in possession of the
> original artwork in six-color separation form, which has never been
> turned over to MG-TABC because there has never been agreement between
> Jim Shade and me about either the quality required of a vendor or the
> price at which these badges should be made available to the members.
> The original badges were produced in Taiwan at a cost of about $15
> each. I asked for and received nothing, and paid for my own badges.
>
> Because the badge design has been both redrawn and reoffered (both
> without permission) from my original design, I have no choice but to
> warn the group that:
>
> 1) MG-TABC is in danger of violating international copyright laws by
> participating in this unauthorized use of club property.
> 2) Ordering unauthorized badges would create an open season on the use
> of this design by anyone who chooses to profit from the use of club
> property by making beer mugs, key chains or dish towels using any
> other variation of the original design that his fancy dictates.
> 3) The badge as redrawn cannot possibly be reproduced in anything
> resembling the original because it is not designed for any known
> badge-making process.
> 4) The quality of the badges that may be furnished will be extremely
> poor, because the technical requirements of production are stringent
> and inconsistent with the artwork as posted by Jim Shade.
>
> The currently proposed artwork is totally inadequate for cloisonn
> reproduction and must be redrawn first by the vendor, a needless and
> risky step which was anticipated in the original badge development.
> Even with artwork specifically designed for badge-production, I had to
> reject the original samples because of poor quality. I was able to
> approve the subsequent run (without change to the artwork) after the
> vendor got his act together. There will be no comparable quality
> control for the Jim Shade offering.
>
> For those of you who do not know me or the history of our badge, I
> offer the following:
>
> I am the 81 year-old founder and first Head of the Department of
> Product Design at North Carolina State University, after beginning my
> teaching activities in the Machine Design Division of the Department
> of Mechanical Engineering at M.I.T. I know what I'm talking about,
> after almost 60 years of product design and development, including
> approximately 75 patents including the continuous geared hinge,
> currently manufactured by every major architectural hardware
> manufacturer in the US. I have owned, hill-climbed and raced four TCs
> over a span of 50 years, and I was introduced to the group by Bob
> Grunau as member number 33.
>
> I have no interest in making the original badges into a collector's
> item because they may never be properly reproduced, which has nothing
> to do with the merits of the original except to acknowledge that it
> was approved by the members at the time of its issue. Like any other
> badge, it can, no doubt, be supplanted by another, better design.
> However, it has become emblematic of MG-TABC. To say that I am angered
> by Jim Shades' precipitous and ill-advised current offer is an
> understatement, because we had discussed this at length over a year
> ago before without resolution of the price, sourcing, oversight or the
> resolution of the profit. In my view, any excess beyond the cost of
> manufacture should, in my view, be only enough for mailing expenses. I
> would try for a target price of about $25, including domestic postage,
> perhaps with foreign shipment subsidized by a hoped-for very modest
> profit. Any excess should be turned over to Walter Prechsl for website
> maintenance. This was not the case with the original run.
>
> To the extent that I will gladly make use of my current business
> connections in Asia to obtain a quality badge, welcoming any
> interested members to help in the physical distribution of the badges
> and the accounting of the proceeds, I would welcome any of the members
> to contact me off list at lazybear@alum.mit.edu
> to 1) express interest in one or more
> badges, and 2) let me know if you would like to help. As you can
> imagine, I no longer have the energy or time to devote to this
> project, but I would like to see permanent, MG-TABC resolution to this
> long-standing thorn in my side.
>
> Obviously, nothing will be done until there is sufficient interest. I
> will be happy to reply to any emails with an attached photograph (in
> high resolution at actual size) of the original badge.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-
murray arundell
- Posts: 76
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 1999 12:12 pm
Re: Badges
Rick,
A pretty harsh statement, unless you know more than you are letting on. If you do then you should either share it, or privately email Austin.
Personally it's my feeling that this subject is best dealt with off list. The exception being if the situation has reached an impasse in which case all parties should state their positions clearly to enable the group to make an informed judgement.....
Murray Arundell
Brisbane Australia
Sent from my iPad
A pretty harsh statement, unless you know more than you are letting on. If you do then you should either share it, or privately email Austin.
Personally it's my feeling that this subject is best dealt with off list. The exception being if the situation has reached an impasse in which case all parties should state their positions clearly to enable the group to make an informed judgement.....
Murray Arundell
Brisbane Australia
Sent from my iPad
On 09/01/2011, at 12:35, Rick Waters wrote:
> Austin,
>
> At age 81, I think you have nothing to gain by not authorizing the
> production of the original badge. I am very disappointed that you have
> taken the path that you have chosen, as I think this site is all about
> cooperation, and it appears to me that you have not made sufficient
> efforts to work with Jim to make the badge available.
>
> And yes, I do believe in the value of intellectual property, etc. etc.
> etc., but somehow, something has come off the rails here, and I think
> you could have done more to make this a win-win situation.
>
> -Rick, TC 7881
>
> On 11-01-08 9:44 AM, Austin R. Baer wrote:
> >
> > As the designer of the MG-TABC badge, I would like to let the members
> > know that I am also interested in furnishing the badges that Jim Shade
> > refers to in his recent announcement. I am in possession of the
> > original artwork in six-color separation form, which has never been
> > turned over to MG-TABC because there has never been agreement between
> > Jim Shade and me about either the quality required of a vendor or the
> > price at which these badges should be made available to the members.
> > The original badges were produced in Taiwan at a cost of about $15
> > each. I asked for and received nothing, and paid for my own badges.
> >
> > Because the badge design has been both redrawn and reoffered (both
> > without permission) from my original design, I have no choice but to
> > warn the group that:
> >
> > 1) MG-TABC is in danger of violating international copyright laws by
> > participating in this unauthorized use of club property.
> > 2) Ordering unauthorized badges would create an open season on the use
> > of this design by anyone who chooses to profit from the use of club
> > property by making beer mugs, key chains or dish towels using any
> > other variation of the original design that his fancy dictates.
> > 3) The badge as redrawn cannot possibly be reproduced in anything
> > resembling the original because it is not designed for any known
> > badge-making process.
> > 4) The quality of the badges that may be furnished will be extremely
> > poor, because the technical requirements of production are stringent
> > and inconsistent with the artwork as posted by Jim Shade.
> >
> > The currently proposed artwork is totally inadequate for cloisonn
> > reproduction and must be redrawn first by the vendor, a needless and
> > risky step which was anticipated in the original badge development.
> > Even with artwork specifically designed for badge-production, I had to
> > reject the original samples because of poor quality. I was able to
> > approve the subsequent run (without change to the artwork) after the
> > vendor got his act together. There will be no comparable quality
> > control for the Jim Shade offering.
> >
> > For those of you who do not know me or the history of our badge, I
> > offer the following:
> >
> > I am the 81 year-old founder and first Head of the Department of
> > Product Design at North Carolina State University, after beginning my
> > teaching activities in the Machine Design Division of the Department
> > of Mechanical Engineering at M.I.T. I know what I'm talking about,
> > after almost 60 years of product design and development, including
> > approximately 75 patents including the continuous geared hinge,
> > currently manufactured by every major architectural hardware
> > manufacturer in the US. I have owned, hill-climbed and raced four TCs
> > over a span of 50 years, and I was introduced to the group by Bob
> > Grunau as member number 33.
> >
> > I have no interest in making the original badges into a collector's
> > item because they may never be properly reproduced, which has nothing
> > to do with the merits of the original except to acknowledge that it
> > was approved by the members at the time of its issue. Like any other
> > badge, it can, no doubt, be supplanted by another, better design.
> > However, it has become emblematic of MG-TABC. To say that I am angered
> > by Jim Shades' precipitous and ill-advised current offer is an
> > understatement, because we had discussed this at length over a year
> > ago before without resolution of the price, sourcing, oversight or the
> > resolution of the profit. In my view, any excess beyond the cost of
> > manufacture should, in my view, be only enough for mailing expenses. I
> > would try for a target price of about $25, including domestic postage,
> > perhaps with foreign shipment subsidized by a hoped-for very modest
> > profit. Any excess should be turned over to Walter Prechsl for website
> > maintenance. This was not the case with the original run.
> >
> > To the extent that I will gladly make use of my current business
> > connections in Asia to obtain a quality badge, welcoming any
> > interested members to help in the physical distribution of the badges
> > and the accounting of the proceeds, I would welcome any of the members
> > to contact me off list at lazybear@alum.mit.edu
> > to 1) express interest in one or more
> > badges, and 2) let me know if you would like to help. As you can
> > imagine, I no longer have the energy or time to devote to this
> > project, but I would like to see permanent, MG-TABC resolution to this
> > long-standing thorn in my side.
> >
> > Obviously, nothing will be done until there is sufficient interest. I
> > will be happy to reply to any emails with an attached photograph (in
> > high resolution at actual size) of the original badge.
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-
John Seim
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2000 2:12 pm
Re: Badges
I understand fully what Austin is saying.
He drew it, it is his intellectual property.
When someone else tries to make badges, who weren't involved in the
creation of the artwork, a lot of details fall through the cracks.
It could be the color choices, it could be the size, it could be how
the badge is to be made, mounting attachments.
I saw this happen with a friend's artwork.
Someone in our club thought it would be a great idea to have a sewn
patch made, from an artist's drawing. He requested the artist's
artwork, and had a batch of patches made. When the artist repeatedly
requested his artwork back, he was told that the next time that the
company was visited that made the patches, his artwork would be
retrieved. Well, that never happened. After five years, the original
artwork was tossed out of the company files. So, the artist never got
back his original drawings/sketches.
Then, a few years later, someone else thinks it would be a great idea
to have some car badges made. Again, they ask the artist for his
permission. He agrees, but wants the final inspection of the proof,
before production occurs. Meanwhile, he is working to duplicate his
original artwork, this time on a computer. The computer generated
artwork would have colors that can be called out, for any duplication.
One person gets his permission, has another member who knows someone
who can make badges run with the project. They get an early rendition
of the recreated design, and that is passed along to the badge
company. The badge company sends back some samples of what they could
make. What they used was clip-art, not even close to what the artist
had drawn.
While those samples were not used in the creation of the car badge,
many people were impressed with what the badge company had done.
All but the artist.
Those that ran with the project were offended when the artist asked
to see a final inspection of the proof, telling them to stop, since
they were working with an early recreated design, and not the correct
design. They did not, badges were produced, and they were a good
imitation of the design, but not the design that the artist had
created. I believe that even the holes in the tang of the badge had
to be slotted, as they did not present correctly to the badge bar clips.
While Jim was well meaning in getting more badges for members, if you
don't know all the pitfalls of production, it is best to leave
matters like this to the designed. Since Austin has expressed a
willingness to furnish badges, let him.
John Seim
Irvine, CA
He drew it, it is his intellectual property.
When someone else tries to make badges, who weren't involved in the
creation of the artwork, a lot of details fall through the cracks.
It could be the color choices, it could be the size, it could be how
the badge is to be made, mounting attachments.
I saw this happen with a friend's artwork.
Someone in our club thought it would be a great idea to have a sewn
patch made, from an artist's drawing. He requested the artist's
artwork, and had a batch of patches made. When the artist repeatedly
requested his artwork back, he was told that the next time that the
company was visited that made the patches, his artwork would be
retrieved. Well, that never happened. After five years, the original
artwork was tossed out of the company files. So, the artist never got
back his original drawings/sketches.
Then, a few years later, someone else thinks it would be a great idea
to have some car badges made. Again, they ask the artist for his
permission. He agrees, but wants the final inspection of the proof,
before production occurs. Meanwhile, he is working to duplicate his
original artwork, this time on a computer. The computer generated
artwork would have colors that can be called out, for any duplication.
One person gets his permission, has another member who knows someone
who can make badges run with the project. They get an early rendition
of the recreated design, and that is passed along to the badge
company. The badge company sends back some samples of what they could
make. What they used was clip-art, not even close to what the artist
had drawn.
While those samples were not used in the creation of the car badge,
many people were impressed with what the badge company had done.
All but the artist.
Those that ran with the project were offended when the artist asked
to see a final inspection of the proof, telling them to stop, since
they were working with an early recreated design, and not the correct
design. They did not, badges were produced, and they were a good
imitation of the design, but not the design that the artist had
created. I believe that even the holes in the tang of the badge had
to be slotted, as they did not present correctly to the badge bar clips.
While Jim was well meaning in getting more badges for members, if you
don't know all the pitfalls of production, it is best to leave
matters like this to the designed. Since Austin has expressed a
willingness to furnish badges, let him.
John Seim
Irvine, CA
On Jan 8, 2011, at 9:44 AM, Austin R. Baer wrote:
> As the designer of the MG-TABC badge, I would like to let the
> members know that I am also interested in furnishing the badges
> that Jim Shade refers to in his recent announcement. I am in
> possession of the original artwork in six-color separation form,
> which has never been turned over to MG-TABC because there has never
> been agreement between Jim Shade and me about either the quality
> required of a vendor or the price at which these badges should be
> made available to the members. The original badges were produced
> in Taiwan at a cost of about $15 each. I asked for and received
> nothing, and paid for my own badges.
>
> Because the badge design has been both redrawn and reoffered (both
> without permission) from my original design, I have no choice but
> to warn the group that:
>
> 1) MG-TABC is in danger of violating international copyright laws
> by participating in this unauthorized use of club property.
> 2) Ordering unauthorized badges would create an open season on the
> use of this design by anyone who chooses to profit from the use of
> club property by making beer mugs, key chains or dish towels using
> any other variation of the original design that his fancy dictates.
> 3) The badge as redrawn cannot possibly be reproduced in anything
> resembling the original because it is not designed for any known
> badge-making process.
> 4) The quality of the badges that may be furnished will be
> extremely poor, because the technical requirements of production
> are stringent and inconsistent with the artwork as posted by Jim
> Shade.
>
> The currently proposed artwork is totally inadequate for cloisonn
> reproduction and must be redrawn first by the vendor, a needless
> and risky step which was anticipated in the original badge
> development. Even with artwork specifically designed for badge-
> production, I had to reject the original samples because of poor
> quality. I was able to approve the subsequent run (without change
> to the artwork) after the vendor got his act together. There will
> be no comparable quality control for the Jim Shade offering.
>
> For those of you who do not know me or the history of our badge, I
> offer the following:
>
> I am the 81 year-old founder and first Head of the Department of
> Product Design at North Carolina State University, after beginning
> my teaching activities in the Machine Design Division of the
> Department of Mechanical Engineering at M.I.T. I know what I'm
> talking about, after almost 60 years of product design and
> development, including approximately 75 patents including the
> continuous geared hinge, currently manufactured by every major
> architectural hardware manufacturer in the US. I have owned, hill-
> climbed and raced four TCs over a span of 50 years, and I was
> introduced to the group by Bob Grunau as member number 33.
>
> I have no interest in making the original badges into a collector's
> item because they may never be properly reproduced, which has
> nothing to do with the merits of the original except to acknowledge
> that it was approved by the members at the time of its issue. Like
> any other badge, it can, no doubt, be supplanted by another, better
> design. However, it has become emblematic of MG-TABC. To say that
> I am angered by Jim Shades' precipitous and ill-advised current
> offer is an understatement, because we had discussed this at length
> over a year ago before without resolution of the price, sourcing,
> oversight or the resolution of the profit. In my view, any excess
> beyond the cost of manufacture should, in my view, be only enough
> for mailing expenses. I would try for a target price of about $25,
> including domestic postage, perhaps with foreign shipment
> subsidized by a hoped-for very modest profit. Any excess should be
> turned over to Walter Prechsl for website maintenance. This was
> not the case with the original run.
>
> To the extent that I will gladly make use of my current business
> connections in Asia to obtain a quality badge, welcoming any
> interested members to help in the physical distribution of the
> badges and the accounting of the proceeds, I would welcome any of
> the members to contact me off list at lazybear@alum.mit.edu to 1)
> express interest in one or more badges, and 2) let me know if you
> would like to help. As you can imagine, I no longer have the
> energy or time to devote to this project, but I would like to see
> permanent, MG-TABC resolution to this long-standing thorn in my side.
>
> Obviously, nothing will be done until there is sufficient
> interest. I will be happy to reply to any emails with an attached
> photograph (in high resolution at actual size) of the original badge.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
-
John S. Kallend
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 12:59 pm
Re: Badges
"Can't we all just get along"; Rodney King.
_________________________________
John Kallend
Professor and Associate Dean
Armour College of Engineering, IIT
_________________________________
John Kallend
Professor and Associate Dean
Armour College of Engineering, IIT
-
FDShade@aol.com
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 1999 3:14 pm
Badges
Austin , you said "I will gladly make use of my current business
connections in Asia to obtain a quality badge, welcoming any interested members to
help in the physical distribution of the badges"
I certainly appreciate your offer Austin, as I'm sure, do most T-ABC
members
If you will have 100 badges made, I will take care of the financing and
distribution.
Please let me know details on the financing, which I will provide and
recover through sales
Jim Shade
2110 E. Mesita Ave
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
connections in Asia to obtain a quality badge, welcoming any interested members to
help in the physical distribution of the badges"
I certainly appreciate your offer Austin, as I'm sure, do most T-ABC
members
If you will have 100 badges made, I will take care of the financing and
distribution.
Please let me know details on the financing, which I will provide and
recover through sales
Jim Shade
2110 E. Mesita Ave
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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