Nuts!

[joecurto@aol.com]

The knock off/nut retains the wheel the splines do the driving, your surface grinder does not go forward or reverse, if splines are worn you can hear distinctive klunking of the wheel shifting on the splines and the knock off will loosen up. Even rear axles on old Volvos and Dodge cars (and others) used a tapered axle and a key on it as well as Airplane propellers use splines and very large nuts to retain them Joe Curto [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[MERLIN GARAGES]

I have just spoken to one of the UK manufacturer of hubs, wheels and knockons and he says that knockons are self tightening. There is a slight movement between the wheel and hub and under acceleration (both front and rear) the wheel and knockons want to stay stationary and the hub to rotate. This is then transmitted to the knockon thread and causes it to tighten on the wheel. Presumably there is more friction between the wheel and knockon than between the tread on the hub and knock on. Chrome wheels might not have this difference in friction. Is this why there is a coarser thread on later MGB knockons which gives less friction??. It is possible under heavy braking to have to opposite effect and cause the knockon to loosen. This happened on the Works Big Healeys because acceleration was slower as compared to the sudden braking at corners and the knockons worked loose hence the lock wiring of them. So accelerate like hell and brake slowly and your nuts will stay tight. Except in reverse!! David Darrell MGTA 0455 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Graham Knight]

David, None of the theories I have heard seem very convincing. Two things occur to me: 1) At the front it is the wheel that causes the hub to rotate whilst at the back it is generally the other way around. I find it hard to see how a theory based on movement between hub and wheel due to acceleration would come to the same conclusion front and rear. 2) It seems likely to me that braking events will normally involve stronger forces than accelerative ones. For example, I believe I can lock a wheel at 70 mph. If I do this the wheel+hub+knock-on goes from (I think) about 840 rpm to zero in just a few seconds. However, it takes much more than a few seconds to get the wheel from zero to 840 rpm by accelerating the car (at least it does on my car). However, if the worry is that, under braking, inertia causes the knock-on to continue to rotate whilst the wheel+ hub have stopped, then you would want the threads to be reversed from what they are! My theory is that the first customers shown the system expressed worries about the nuts coming undone. Manufacturer then invented the "self tightening" theory and had to put different threads on each side in order to give the theory some credibility. Graham

>I have just spoken to one of the UK manufacturer of hubs, wheels and >knockons and he says that knockons are self tightening. >There is a slight movement between the wheel and hub and under >acceleration (both front and rear) the wheel and knockons want to stay >stationary and the hub to rotate. >This is then transmitted to the knockon thread and causes it to tighten >on the wheel. > >Presumably there is more friction between the wheel and knockon than >between the tread on the hub and knock on. >Chrome wheels might not have this difference in friction. > >Is this why there is a coarser thread on later MGB knockons which gives >less friction??. > >It is possible under heavy braking to have to opposite effect and cause >the knockon to loosen. > >This happened on the Works Big Healeys because acceleration was slower >as compared to the sudden braking at corners and the knockons worked >loose hence the lock wiring of them. > >So accelerate like hell and brake slowly and your nuts will stay tight. >Except in reverse!!

[1939mgtb]

* Manufacturer then invented the "self

> tightening" theory and had to put different threads on each side in order > to give the theory some credibility.

Totally incorrect. Gentlemen, once I installed a hub for the right front onto the left side on a Fiat Dino. This occurred when a company sent a used hub numbered incorrectly to me for my car, and I didn't catch it before assembly. This nut was hammered TIGHT. The nut came off. The other three, installed correctly, did not. Recently, a friend with a XKE did the old swaporoo on the rear hubs of the car. Guess what? Both rear wheels decided to take a drive by themselves! We may not know why they come off, and I don't know that they are self-tightening, but I can absolutely assure you that a hub/nut installed on the wrong side will absolutely cause the nut to depart the car. If you don't believe it try it on your car and report back.... Best regards, Ray "There are no easy answers in this case m'lud."

[Charles Hill]

The self-tightening action of knockoffs is NOT a myth. Its a matter of simple physics. I read a technical article on the subject several years ago. It had diagrams and everything. Of course I can't find it now. It could have been in TSO. If so, maybe someone with one of the searchable CDs of back issues can find it for us. Regards, Charles Hill 1939mgtb wrote:

>* Manufacturer then invented the "self > > >>tightening" theory and had to put different threads on each side in order >>to give the theory some credibility. >> >> > >Totally incorrect. Gentlemen, once I installed a hub for the right front >onto the left side on a Fiat Dino. This occurred when a company sent a used >hub numbered incorrectly to me for my car, and I didn't catch it before >assembly. This nut was hammered TIGHT. The nut came off. The other three, >installed correctly, did not. >Recently, a friend with a XKE did the old swaporoo on the rear hubs of the >car. Guess what? Both rear wheels decided to take a drive by themselves! >We may not know why they come off, and I don't know that they are >self-tightening, but I can absolutely assure you that a hub/nut installed on >the wrong side will absolutely cause the nut to depart the car. >If you don't believe it try it on your car and report back.... >Best regards, >Ray >"There are no easy answers in this case m'lud." > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >

[Jay Lockrow]

In this same area of wheel nuts my dad had a very good friend that ordered a 1963 Corvette from Generous Motors with aluminum knock off wheels. ALL the threads were right hand threads and he was continuously loosing wheels on the right side. After replacing several aluminum wheels at mucho bucks he finally went to the original bolt on wheels with hubcaps. No amount of talking could seem to convince Generous Motors that they had made a major mistake and you had to have a left hand thread on the right side of the car. I have no idea whatever happened to the wheels taken off but i hope no one put them back on a car... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Peter Roberts]

Since we are into war stories about wheels falling off. Many years ago, whilst traveling at speed on the Interstate, I noticed that the fellow behind me had lost a wheel which went bounding ahead of me into the ditch. Concerned, I looked in the rearview to see what happened to him. You can imagine my astonishment to discover that there was no one behind me! I was driving an early Austin Healy. I had lost the right rear wheel. My weight was just right to balance the car on three wheels....at 70 mph! Having safely recovered and stopped, the car was towed to the nearest garage where I was informed that all four lug studs had sheared off at the brake drum. Someone up there likes me! Many years later, I had the privilege of meeting Donald Healy. I recounted my story to Donald and noted that the garage could not understand why Austin Healy used soft steel for the lug studs. Donald gave me a long look and replied, "We were having a lot of trouble with fellows using the car in hill trials who broke the half shaft and claimed warranty." _Peter "Bang on your knock-offs"

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Lockrow" JayLock@localnet.com> To: "1939mgtb" 1939mgtb@comcast.net> Cc: "MERLIN GARAGES" ddarrell@btconnect.com>; "Graham Knight" graham.knight5@btinternet.com>; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Nuts! > > > In this same area of wheel nuts my dad had a very good friend that ordered > a > 1963 Corvette from Generous Motors with aluminum knock off wheels. ALL > the > threads were right hand threads and he was continuously loosing wheels on > the > right side. After replacing several aluminum wheels at mucho bucks he > finally > went to the original bolt on wheels with hubcaps. No amount of talking > could > seem to convince Generous Motors that they had made a major mistake and > you had > to have a left hand thread on the right side of the car. I have no idea > whatever happened to the wheels taken off but i hope no one put them back > on a > car... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

[Jim or Jan Sullivan]

Hi Ray and all, Once in the 1950's when I was very young, I also swapped the rear hubs on my TC, by mistake, and guess what, the right rear wheel fell off about a mile from my house. The Best, Jim Sullivan TC 7517 EXU

[Graham Knight]

Charles, OK! You're right, my guess was wrong - sorry! See http://home.versatel.nl/hauntedsaloon/MG%20VA%20WIRE%20WHEELS.htm This gives some idea of how it works but, for me, still falls short of a full explanation. However, the source is impeccable! Graham At 23:29 22/04/2005 -0500, Charles Hill wrote:

>The self-tightening action of knockoffs is NOT a myth. Its a matter of >simple physics. I read a technical article on the subject several years >ago. It had diagrams and everything. Of course I can't find it now. >It could have been in TSO. If so, maybe someone with one of the >searchable CDs of back issues can find it for us. > >Regards, >Charles Hill > >1939mgtb wrote: > > >* Manufacturer then invented the "self > > > > > >>tightening" theory and had to put different threads on each side in order > >>to give the theory some credibility. > >> > >> > > > >Totally incorrect. Gentlemen, once I installed a hub for the right front > >onto the left side on a Fiat Dino. This occurred when a company sent a > used > >hub numbered incorrectly to me for my car, and I didn't catch it before > >assembly. This nut was hammered TIGHT. The nut came off. The other > three, > >installed correctly, did not. > >Recently, a friend with a XKE did the old swaporoo on the rear hubs of the > >car. Guess what? Both rear wheels decided to take a drive by themselves! > >We may not know why they come off, and I don't know that they are > >self-tightening, but I can absolutely assure you that a hub/nut > installed on > >the wrong side will absolutely cause the nut to depart the car. > >If you don't believe it try it on your car and report back.... > >Best regards, > >Ray > >"There are no easy answers in this case m'lud." > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > >

[Jeff Redman]

G'day Pete, Unusually dim today... (dawn service)... but please explain in English what in hell's name is a 'lug stud'???? (Please type slowly) Reddo (confused again -----Original Message----- From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Roberts Sent: Sunday, 24 April 2005 12:18 AM To: jaylock@localnet.com; 1939mgtb Cc: MERLIN GARAGES; Graham Knight; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Nuts! Since we are into war stories about wheels falling off. Many years ago, whilst traveling at speed on the Interstate, I noticed that the fellow behind me had lost a wheel which went bounding ahead of me into the ditch. Concerned, I looked in the rearview to see what happened to him. You can imagine my astonishment to discover that there was no one behind me! I was driving an early Austin Healy. I had lost the right rear wheel. My weight was just right to balance the car on three wheels....at 70 mph! Having safely recovered and stopped, the car was towed to the nearest garage where I was informed that all four lug studs had sheared off at the brake drum. Someone up there likes me! Many years later, I had the privilege of meeting Donald Healy. I recounted my story to Donald and noted that the garage could not understand why Austin Healy used soft steel for the lug studs. Donald gave me a long look and replied, "We were having a lot of trouble with fellows using the car in hill trials who broke the half shaft and claimed warranty." _Peter "Bang on your knock-offs"

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jay Lockrow" JayLock@localnet.com> To: "1939mgtb" 1939mgtb@comcast.net> Cc: "MERLIN GARAGES" ddarrell@btconnect.com>; "Graham Knight" graham.knight5@btinternet.com>; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, April 23, 2005 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Nuts! > > > In this same area of wheel nuts my dad had a very good friend that ordered > a > 1963 Corvette from Generous Motors with aluminum knock off wheels. ALL > the > threads were right hand threads and he was continuously loosing wheels on > the > right side. After replacing several aluminum wheels at mucho bucks he > finally > went to the original bolt on wheels with hubcaps. No amount of talking > could > seem to convince Generous Motors that they had made a major mistake and > you had > to have a left hand thread on the right side of the car. I have no idea > whatever happened to the wheels taken off but i hope no one put them back > on a > car... > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links