The reason I figured out to shorten the tube onXPAG engines was that I noticed years ago that " T" types leaked the most when
they were shut off after careful study I reckoned that the
tube was in the oil in the sump, when shut off.______________Surely the reason it leaks when not running is because the crank is not turning to wind the oil back in. Any oil in the vicinity of the "seal" is then able to find its way out if there is any wear there. Personally I prefer to stick to the original method having heard too many tales of woe about the various aftermarket seal arrangements. At least, having used a lot of care in rebuilding, I only have a little oil to deal with rather than the gushers ( I exaggerate) which are being reported. As to the cutting of the pipe, I doubt that it makes any difference. For crankcase pressure to have an effect it must have a gradient. The pipe will have the same pressure at both ends and thus will not have any movement of oil upwards. The only movement will be downwards due to gravity and there may be a slight effect here if it does not move down the pipe fast enough leaving a pool of oil around the scroll/ seal which can then find its way out. I doubt that this will be significant, however, as hot oil is like water and will flow down the pipe quite fast. This is also why 10/40 leaks more than 20/50 and, incidently, why it will give a lower oil pressure ( though whether this matters is another question).Ian Thomson
Notts. UK.
Re: Rear crank seal
-
eworpe
- Posts: 18
- Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:27 am
Re: Rear crank seal
Following Clive's excellent dossier on the rear oil seal, some additional
guide lines can be found in John James' Totally T type 2 web site,
issue 5 April 2011. http://ttypes.org/ttt2/crankshaft-rear-oil-seal
The mechanical oil seal can be made to work reasonably well, but it
needs to be set up correctly, and any wear due to worn bearings,
allowing the crankshaft to rub against the oil seal needs to be sorted
out. The article explains one technique suggested by the late Ray Sales.
Eric.
________________________________________
From:'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com
A bit of a technical ramble !
The REAR CRANKSHAFT OIL LEAK
The correct fitting of the soft alloy oil thrower (moss 433-410) and gasket.
I believe this to be the most important factor. As supplied I have NEVER found one that fits directly, either Moss etc. or original Morris / MG / BMC stock. They are either too tight, or more often far too slack ( There must be one somewhere that by default is perfect - I've yet to find it). Too slack is useless. Bin it. This item needs to be a close 0.0015 to 0.002 in clearance fit, and I always ensure that I have a tight one, and carefully hand scrape the surface until I have that close clearance and absolutely minimal oil trace which seems to be thicker gearbox oil ! Fitting a too tight one and hoping it will bed is futile and can result in very rapid overheating and melting of the surface of the almost solder like soft alloy part, destroying all chance of oil retention. This is not a simple process and few mechanics today are capable of scraping in a bearing surface. ( few would even know what it means !)
guide lines can be found in John James' Totally T type 2 web site,
issue 5 April 2011. http://ttypes.org/ttt2/crankshaft-rear-oil-seal
The mechanical oil seal can be made to work reasonably well, but it
needs to be set up correctly, and any wear due to worn bearings,
allowing the crankshaft to rub against the oil seal needs to be sorted
out. The article explains one technique suggested by the late Ray Sales.
Eric.
________________________________________
From:'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com
A bit of a technical ramble !
The REAR CRANKSHAFT OIL LEAK
The correct fitting of the soft alloy oil thrower (moss 433-410) and gasket.
I believe this to be the most important factor. As supplied I have NEVER found one that fits directly, either Moss etc. or original Morris / MG / BMC stock. They are either too tight, or more often far too slack ( There must be one somewhere that by default is perfect - I've yet to find it). Too slack is useless. Bin it. This item needs to be a close 0.0015 to 0.002 in clearance fit, and I always ensure that I have a tight one, and carefully hand scrape the surface until I have that close clearance and absolutely minimal oil trace which seems to be thicker gearbox oil ! Fitting a too tight one and hoping it will bed is futile and can result in very rapid overheating and melting of the surface of the almost solder like soft alloy part, destroying all chance of oil retention. This is not a simple process and few mechanics today are capable of scraping in a bearing surface. ( few would even know what it means !)
-
Norman Verona
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 4:21 am
Re: Rear crank seal
Madhu, That's OK it's good by my religion. Norman VeronaLa Foie, 49520, Noellet, FranceTel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79Web: www.frenchblat.comMG Midget TC 10178 From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Madhuparoor madhuparoor@gmail.com [mg-tabc]
Sent: 17 June 2016 08:56
To: Roger Furneaux
Cc: recon6060@aol.com; MG-TABC List
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Rear crank seal Hi Roger,I am afraid, to cut it by half an inch I may have to change my faith/religion. So I do not want do it.
Regards madhuparoor
Am 16.06.2016 um 21:58 schrieb Roger Furneaux roger.46tc@gmail.com [mg-tabc] :
Sent: 17 June 2016 08:56
To: Roger Furneaux
Cc: recon6060@aol.com; MG-TABC List
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Rear crank seal Hi Roger,I am afraid, to cut it by half an inch I may have to change my faith/religion. So I do not want do it.
Regards madhuparoor
Am 16.06.2016 um 21:58 schrieb Roger Furneaux roger.46tc@gmail.com [mg-tabc] :
Not so Ed - if the tube is below the oil level, and there was positive crankcase pressure, it would drive it up the tube. Which is why tubes are often shortened or removed. I think all, or most, modern cars have negative crankcase pressure, which is why they are so leak-free. In fact a lot of modern steel sumps rust from the outside because they are not covered in oil... There was an article by the late Tony Smith in TTT about creating negative pressure in the XPAG. ocTagonally Roger On Thu, Jun 16, 2016 at 8:42 PM, recon6060@aol.com [mg-tabc] wrote: I have thought about the cutting and not sure how it would help at all. The crankcase is generally under pressure. By cutting the tube so it is above the oil level the pressure would try to get out through the seal. With it under the oil at least it is not subject to the crankcase pressure. If you had a vacuum or even neutral pressure in the crankcase it may help. But not many engines have that. I am sure I will be corrected on this so please explain the logic so I can learn. Ed In a message dated 6/16/2016 3:27:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, mg-tabc-noreply@yahoogroups.com writes: I cut mine to the recommended length (which I can't remember at the moment) and it made no difference to the rear leak I had at the time.- Steve Simmons, TC8975 On 6/16/2016 12:07 PM, norman@frenchblat.com [mg-tabc] wrote: As you probably know my rear seal conversion is leaking. Running out, not dripping. The engine's out and I'm waiting for a new seal (having ruined the spare I had which was cut by the new speedy sleeve). Sandy said to cut or remove the drain feed pipe. What does the group think. Should I: a) cut it and if so, where.b) remove itc) leave it there A wet NormanTC10178
-
Norman Verona
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Sun May 17, 2015 4:21 am
Re: Rear crank seal
I'm not a scientist but would say that if you have high crankcase pressure then the oil in the sump will be under the same pressure. Right or Wrong? Norman VeronaLa Foie, 49520, Noellet, FranceTel: 0033 (0)2 41 92 73 44Mob: 0033 (0)7 70 70 23 79Web: www.frenchblat.comMG Midget TC 10178 From: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [mailto:mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 'Clive P Sherriff' csherriff99@gmail.com [mg-tabc]
Sent: 17 June 2016 11:24
To: recon6060@aol.com; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Rear crank seal Ed, >> With it under the oil at least it is not subject to the crankcase pressure.
Sent: 17 June 2016 11:24
To: recon6060@aol.com; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Rear crank seal Ed, >> With it under the oil at least it is not subject to the crankcase pressure.
-
joecurto@aol.com
- Posts: 313
- Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2000 3:42 am
Re: Rear crank seal
Ian think about it the tube with the engine off and in the standing oil, the tube will fill up and then roll out the back of the main cap since the few ounces of oil in the tube cannot overwhelm the weight of the standing oil
Regarding crankcase pressure pushing the oil; up the tube I think an engine overhaul is needed as the road draft tube is pretty big and I doubt there would be any actual "pressure" in the engine
Joe Curto 718-762-7878 www.joecurto.com
-----Original Message-----
From: 'i.thomson@talk21.com' i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc]
To: yahoogroups
Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2016 6:27 am
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Rear crank seal
The reason I figured out to shorten the tube onXPAG engines was that I noticed years ago that " T" types leaked the most when
they were shut off after careful study I reckoned that the
tube was in the oil in the sump, when shut off. ______________ Surely the reason it leaks when not running is because the crank is not turning to wind the oil back in. Any oil in the vicinity of the "seal" is then able to find its way out if there is any wear there. Personally I prefer to stick to the original method having heard too many tales of woe about the various aftermarket seal arrangements. At least, having used a lot of care in rebuilding, I only have a little oil to deal with rather than the gushers ( I exaggerate) which are being reported. As to the cutting of the pipe, I doubt that it makes any difference. For crankcase pressure to have an effect it must have a gradient. The pipe will have the same pressure at both ends and thus will not have any movement of oil upwards. The only movement will be downwards due to gravity and there may be a slight effect here if it does not move down the pipe fast enough leaving a pool of oil around the scroll/ seal which can then find its way out. I doubt that this will be significant, however, as hot oil is like water and will flow down the pipe quite fast. This is also why 10/40 leaks more than 20/50 and, incidently, why it will give a lower oil pressure ( though whether this matters is another question). Ian Thomson
Notts. 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Regarding crankcase pressure pushing the oil; up the tube I think an engine overhaul is needed as the road draft tube is pretty big and I doubt there would be any actual "pressure" in the engine
Joe Curto 718-762-7878 www.joecurto.com
-----Original Message-----
From: 'i.thomson@talk21.com' i.thomson@talk21.com [mg-tabc]
To: yahoogroups
Sent: Fri, Jun 17, 2016 6:27 am
Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] Rear crank seal
The reason I figured out to shorten the tube onXPAG engines was that I noticed years ago that " T" types leaked the most when
they were shut off after careful study I reckoned that the
tube was in the oil in the sump, when shut off. ______________ Surely the reason it leaks when not running is because the crank is not turning to wind the oil back in. Any oil in the vicinity of the "seal" is then able to find its way out if there is any wear there. Personally I prefer to stick to the original method having heard too many tales of woe about the various aftermarket seal arrangements. At least, having used a lot of care in rebuilding, I only have a little oil to deal with rather than the gushers ( I exaggerate) which are being reported. As to the cutting of the pipe, I doubt that it makes any difference. For crankcase pressure to have an effect it must have a gradient. The pipe will have the same pressure at both ends and thus will not have any movement of oil upwards. The only movement will be downwards due to gravity and there may be a slight effect here if it does not move down the pipe fast enough leaving a pool of oil around the scroll/ seal which can then find its way out. I doubt that this will be significant, however, as hot oil is like water and will flow down the pipe quite fast. This is also why 10/40 leaks more than 20/50 and, incidently, why it will give a lower oil pressure ( though whether this matters is another question). Ian Thomson
Notts. 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Phil & Arty Williams
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:53 pm
Re: Rear crank seal
THe Harley guys used to use a valve designed to evacuate all the air from the crankcase resulting in a negative air pressure. This was to stop oil blowing out of the engine as a result of the 2 cylinder engine pumping up the crankcase and blowing oil out every seal and opening. These valves come in a variety of styles and can be fit to most engines. As a side benefit these actually increase horsepower by about 6-8% as the engine no longer has to fight against the increased pressure in the crankcase.
Just a thought.
Never try to teach a pig to dance ... It wastes your time, and it irritates the pig.
Just a thought.
Never try to teach a pig to dance ... It wastes your time, and it irritates the pig.
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