Wheel Bearings

[Terry & Lynda-May O'Brien]

Advice needed. I have TC8202 in pieces. The recorded mileage on the odometer was 54,000. The chances are that the wheel bearings are ok and everyone who has looked at the car thinks that the hubs, kingpins, bearings, etc are fine. Bearings are, in the scheme of things, cheap and since it is now straight forward to replace them I intend to do that. I have searched the archives for the difference between the tapered and the original and I can't find anyone stating flat out that one is better than the other. Suggestions welcome. Terry

[David & Joyce Edgar]

>I have searched the archives for the difference between the tapered and >the original and I can't find anyone stating flat out that one is better >than the other. Suggestions welcome. Terry

Terry, Bearing wise I think the rollers are better but if you are putting in new bearings, either kind is probably quite adequate on the TC. If you prefer originality, the go for the ball type. If you drive hard in the corners I would go the roller route. Be sure to keep the spacer between the bearings and adjust play with shims. If you searched the archives you will have found that the bearings and spacer tightened together in effect, create a larger diameter axle. The original spindle is on the small side and was not designed to take the load by itself. David Edgar, TC 5108 El Cajon, California

[Dick Little]

Terry, this is my first try at responding to a question before the group, and I am not an expert at all. I do have some thoughts about bearings, stub axles, hubs, etc. as I am almost through a rebuild of a TA. My TA had been extensively raced before WW II by the original owner, and both my stub axles were cracked at their junctions with the rest of the forging. By all means, have your spindles checked for cracks. Many more are cracked than people realize. I obtained a TA and a TC spindle which were not cracked, but they are not identical, so I had the original stub axles replaced using the pressed-in replacement procedure covered in "TCs Forever", by Mike Sherrill. I am installing the new spindles and ball-type bearings right now. When I was driving the car before the rebuild, my hubs were worn inside, and the outer race of ball bearings did not fit tightly in the hub. I installed roller bearings to see if things were any better. Using them in a worn hub seemed to help, but I still could feel movement when I "rocked" the wheel after set-up. During the rebuild, I purchased new hubs (not inexpensive, but worth it) and installed roller bearings again. When I checked for wheel movement after I had set up the roller bearings, I know my wheels seemed to be looser on the axle than I wanted them to be . I removed them and installed ball bearings which seem tighter when I try to move the wheel. When I was running tapered bearings on the car, I had read an article several years ago about using ball-type bearings vs roller bearings. (I can not remember the source; maybe some other members will!) I understood the article to say that if the original-type ball bearings are installed correctly along with the tapered sleeve which fits over the stub axle between the inner and outer bearings, the inner races of both bearings and the tapered sleeve act together with the stub axle to form a very strong "beam" which helps prevent the stub axle from carrying all the bending load generated by the hub as it carries the wheel. If I correctly understand the article, when the spindle nut is tightened against the inner race of the outer bearing, the compression force is transmitted via the tapered piece to the inner race of the inner bearing and its spacer piece so as to stiffen the assembly against bending under severe loads when the car is driven. I interpreted the article to be saying that using roller bearings did not provide the same amount of "beam strength" for the whole assembly, because roller bearings usually are set up with a slight bit of play between inner and outer races when the spindle nut is tightened. I don't know if ball bearings are better than roller bearings. Theoretically,a roller bearing will handle much more thrust load than a ball bearing. However, if the stub axle is over-stressed because it isn't assisted by the compression forces described above, the overall effect may be less strength and less safety of the whole system. I felt that roller bearings may decrease this overall strength, so I went back to ball bearings once I got hubs with a tighter inner diameter to grip the bearing's outer race. I also had to add spacers between the inner bearing race and the tapered sleeve which fits over the axle, in order to get the desired tightness of the hub at set-up. Sorry this is so wordy. Dick Little ----Original Message ----- From: "Terry & Lynda-May O'Brien" hamptons1@shaw.ca> To: "MG-TABC" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 12:21 AM Subject: [mg-tabc] Wheel Bearings

> Advice needed. > I have TC8202 in pieces. The recorded mileage on the odometer was > 54,000. The chances are that the wheel bearings are ok and everyone who > has looked at the car thinks that the hubs, kingpins, bearings, etc are > fine. > Bearings are, in the scheme of things, cheap and since it is now > straight forward to replace them I intend to do that. > I have searched the archives for the difference between the tapered and > the original and I can't find anyone stating flat out that one is better > than the other. > Suggestions welcome. Terry > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

[David & Joyce Edgar]

>I interpreted the article to be saying that >using roller bearings did not provide the same amount of "beam strength" for >the whole assembly, because roller bearings usually are set up with a slight >bit of play between inner and outer races when the spindle nut is tightened.

You can safely use roller berarings on the front axles but you must still use the spacer sleeve. Compressing the roller bearings and sleeve together create the same "beam" as the original set up. You just have to use shims in order to create the required play. When the original idea of replacing the ball bearings with roller bearings on the TC was introduced, the process involved tossing the sleeve spacer and adjusting the roller play via the axle nut. It was eventually understood that the front axle in itself was not designed stand up to the stress by itself and the bearing/sleeve/bearing under compression added to the total strength. David Edgar, TC 5108 El Cajon, California

[Davidtasa@aol.com]

Terry, Several years ago, when my ball type wheel bearings showed too much wear, I replaced them with tapered roller bearings set up as per Doug's instructions on p. 136 of the T Series Manual, leaving out the spacer. They performed very well. As more recent information has surfaced showing the importance of the spacer and torqued set up, I first had the stub axles crack tested, then I added slightly over-length spacers supplied by Roger Furneaux, carefully shortening them to the exact fit so that the roller bearings have no play, but no appreciable pre-load with 70 ft lbs. of torque on the hub nut. I'm quite happy with this set up and would be glad to help anyone with more detailed information about the set up without going into a long description here. David TC 3896 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[joecurto@aol.com]

Terry unless your friends come from Krypton all stub axles look good to the naked eye. Magnaflux is not that expensive, as for the 50,000 miles that is a lot for a 1940's engine and car. Joe Curto [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[mark heathman]

WE tried the tapper roller bearings with the spacer (for strength) and shims for a fit with torque on the spindle nut. Once we had the propper shims determined we set the bearings, shims, and spacer all on the spindle with out the hub and found that the inner race of the outside bearing was only half on the spindle. The rest was hanging out over the threads for the spindle nut. This being caused by the offset of the tapper bearing. With that concern and the the added leverage caused by the bearings being futher apart we went back to a roller bearing with a distance piece machined for propper length, all then fit nicely on the spindle. You can also get from bearing houses a thrust ball bearing. They are pricey, but worth the added security at the apex of a hard corner Mark TC5707

----- Original Message ----- From: Davidtasa@aol.com Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 6:59 AM To: mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Subject: [mg-tabc] Wheel Bearings Terry, Several years ago, when my ball type wheel bearings showed too much wear, I replaced them with tapered roller bearings set up as per Doug's instructions on p. 136 of the T Series Manual, leaving out the spacer. They performed very well. As more recent information has surfaced showing the importance of the spacer and torqued set up, I first had the stub axles crack tested, then I added slightly over-length spacers supplied by Roger Furneaux, carefully shortening them to the exact fit so that the roller bearings have no play, but no appreciable pre-load with 70 ft lbs. of torque on the hub nut. I'm quite happy with this set up and would be glad to help anyone with more detailed information about the set up without going into a long description here. David TC 3896 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[m_e_jablonski]

--- In mg-tabc@y..., "mark heathman" wrote: found that the inner race of the outside bearing was only half on the spindle. The rest was hanging out over the threads for the spindle nut. This being caused by the offset of the tapper bearing. The tapered roller bearings have (from memory) a 1.25mm offset between inner and outer races resulting in a 2.5mm wider gap between bearings (hence the need for a longer spacer or additional shims) and the hub being displaced outwards by 1.25mm. In order to compensate for this displacement I made up new inner spacers (the ones the seals run on) 1.25mm thinner than the originals. This brings the hub back into its proper location. As the hub is back in its original location there is no additional bending moment applied to the stub i.e. the centre of load still passes through the same location on the spindle. However, this still leaves the outer bearing inner race poking out 1.25mm further along the spindle. Mark Jablonski Melbourne Australia

[Ron Benson]

Hi all, After having greased the TB front end I find that there is slight play in the front o/s wheel(bearing. As these have done only approx 4,500 miles I suspect premature wear. Bearings are ball type (FAG) and appear to be tight inside hub and greased. Scanning Special Files there appears to be the opinion that not all ball bearings that fit are correct. Mine have 9 and 7 balls. If this is correct which type should we fit? I don't really want to go to taper rollers if poss. Regards, Ron Benson

[DougPulver@aol.com]

Bob, I seem to recall that you (I believe) recently posted the numbers for front wheel bearings as well, but I can't seem to find them in the special files. Would you please note them again? Further, is the 12 ball bearing primarily for racing type driving or would it be also a good idea for the "average" guy driver like me. Thanks. Doug Pulver TC 5850 -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grunau grunau.garage@sympatico.ca> To: FrankGraham frankgraham@msn.com>; mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 2 Aug 2005 21:15:49 -0400 Subject: RE: [mg-tabc] Looking for Bob Grunau Hi Frank, I've been away for a few days. Yes the 2" hex nuts and seals seal off the diff oil from the wheel bearings . Therefore you need to install double sealed and pre-lubed wheel bearings. SKF-6208-2RS, 9 ball type or SKF-M208-2RZ, 12 ball type. I guess you could use the original grease fitting inside the rear hub and lubricate the bearings that way. However most, if not all, replacement hubs available recently have deleted this grease fitting. Therefore you could pack the bearings with grease. Use of double sealed ball bearings is a surer way of keeping grease off the brakes. To use the bearing nut/oil seals on the original splined axles you need to install a 1" CR Speedi-Sleeve to cover the inner hub splines. I have not done this installation but I see from other responses that the job has been done using epoxy to give the Speedi-sleeve a solid backing. Normally the seals run on a polished area of my tapered axle shafts. I don't know of a double lip seal . Not sure where the 140 ft-lbs torque came from, I think I have been saying 125 ft-lbs?? Hope this helps. Bob Grunau Bob, Regarding your TC replacement 2" hex rear bearing hub nuts with seals, can these be used with stock axle shafts and hubs or are your tapered axles and hubs required? I replaced both half shafts, hubs, and the bronze bushings with new ones from Abingdon spares and NOS R&M rear bearings just a few years and very few miles ago and I don't want to replace them if at all possible. The brakes have been dry until now but a slight seepage has started coming from either the bearing hub seal or the splined hub to bearing carrier paper gasket on the right side. I suspect that the machined surface on the axle housing is too scored to allow the carrier seal to work properly. I also realize that I only have about 90 'lbs of torque on the axle nuts not 140 as you recommend and that may be contributing to the problem. If I understand your setup the new nuts seal off the rear end oil from entering the bearing carrier completely. I assume that your tapered shafts have a micro finish surface just inboard the hub for the seal to run on. Could I use a speedi sleeve on a stock axle shaft to the same effect? How do the bearings get lube, do you drill and tap the carrier for a grease fitting or just pack them as is done on the front hubs? Are you able to supply or know the part number for a speedi sleeve for the rear axle housing itself and if there is a double lip seal available to replace the stock seal, since I may still have a problem keeping grease from escaping the carrier even if I am able to use your axle nuts with seals? Thanks, -- Frank < frankgraham@msn.com > ______________________ Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]