DEFINITION - T-TYPES

[Joe Gates]

I am sure you "listers" can give me some expert guidance. I am involved with a working group that is starting a Register of T-Types that are domiciled in Southern Africa. I would like to know what definition is generally used to determine eligibility for inclusion in such a register. It seems probable that an appropriate definition would be something like "MG T-Types manufactured as road-going vehicles between 1936 and 1955 that can be visually recognised as such, regard being had to chassis, engine, gear-box and body panels, etc., etc."

However, a degree of latitude is probably required to accommodate exceptional circumstances e.g. racing "specials" of that era. Also, with the passing of time, general wear and tear, possible unavailability of some components and concern for driver safety (obviously the Datsun steering box for this one!!) means that most if not all T-Types no longer conform fully to original specs, so an "authentic" T-Type (as it left the factory) will be hard to find.

Further, I guess one challenge relates to post-1955 racing specials that were privately constructed by individual enthusiasts that were based on T-Type components e.g. single seater with tubular chassis incorporating TC XPAG engine and gear box - are they in or out?

Lastly, I also guess there could be a classification system within the register such as "authentic" (as it left the factory), "original" (some components replaced with period items e.g. the engine), "non-original" (some components replaced with non-period items e.g. Datsun steering box), "non-authentic replica", etc., etc., suffice it to say that kit cars would probably be a no-go zone!!!

Your comments (send to me off-list if bulky) will be appreciated.

Joe Gates

TC 8675

[joecurto@aol.com]

Joe did I hear the opening of Pandoras Box somewhere in your neck of the woods? Good Luck with this one. Curto

[Roger Furneaux]

Re: [mg-tabc] DEFINITION - T-TYPES Joe - a quick answer re. the "Specials" (i.e. passing the buck!) is to point you in the direction of Stewart Penfound, he is the T-Racing competition sec. here in the U.K. , races a Lester-MG and knows of most of the specials here: "Stewart Penfound" Stewart.Penfound@btinternet.com> oc[b]T[/b]agonally Roger

[quote]I am sure you "listers" can give me some expert guidance. I am involved with a working group that is starting a Register of T-Types that are domiciled in Southern Africa. I would like to know what definition is generally used to determine eligibility for inclusion in such a register. It seems probable that an appropriate definition would be something like "MG T-Types manufactured as road-going vehicles between 1936 and 1955 that can be visually recognised as such, regard being had to chassis, engine, gear-box and body panels, etc., etc." However, a degree of latitude is probably required to accommodate exceptional circumstances e.g. racing "specials" of that era. Also, with the passing of time, general wear and tear, possible unavailability of some components and concern for driver safety (obviously the Datsun steering box for this one!!) means that most if not all T-Types no longer conform fully to original specs, so an "authentic" T-Type (as it left the factory) will be hard to find. Further, I guess one challenge relates to post-1955 racing specials that were privately constructed by individual enthusiasts that were based on T-Type components e.g. single seater with tubular chassis incorporating TC XPAG engine and gear box - are they in or out? Lastly, I also guess there could be a classification system within the register such as "authentic" (as it left the factory), "original" (some components replaced with period items e.g. the engine), "non-original" (some components replaced with non-period items e.g. Datsun steering box), "non-authentic replica", etc., etc., suffice it to say that kit cars would probably be a no-go zone!!! Your comments (send to me off-list if bulky) will be appreciated. Joe Gates TC 8675 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service [u]http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/[/u]> .

[/quote]

[C Sherriff]

Message text written by "Roger Furneaux"

>Joe - a quick answer re. the "Specials" (i.e. passing the buck!) is to

point you in the direction of Stewart Penfound, he is the T-Racing competition sec. here in the U.K. , races a Lester-MG and knows of most of the specials here: "Stewart Penfound" Stewart.Penfound@btinternet.com> ====================================================== Roger With all due respect to the fun the T Type racers get from their hobby, a T Racer in that group, with the dramatic modifications and additions these cars run with, bears as much relationship to the original T Types as a Datsun Steering Box! Getting guidance from that source is a Vested interest if ever I saw one! Same as the recent Naylor TFs for that matter - visually similar but with modern engines cant be compared! A fine attempt to control catagories will be found in the VSCC Eligibility guidelines document REgards Clive

[Chip Old]

Oh boy, I see another "when does a T-Type stop being a T-Type" thread about to start. You'll never get any two owners to agree on what amount of deviation from factory originality is acceptable. Never! If I were you I'd think very carefully about what the purpose of your register is to be. If it were up to me I'd make it as inclusive as possible. Take a relaxed approach, enjoy the cars. Record modifications in your Register if you want to, but don't exclude a car because it has been modified. And don't exclude specials based on T-Type componants. They are an important part of T-Type history. Others here will tell you to be fairly exclusive (to exclude TCs with Datsun steering boxes and the like). The big problem with that approach is that someone has to decide what modifications are allowed and what modifications are not. Experience right here in the MG-TABC mailing list shows that it's impossible to reach concensus on that subject. Some will even tell you to allow only absolutely original cars, but that policy will exclude virtually every T-Type still in existance. A register with a membership of zero isn't much use to anyone. Good luck, Joe. You'll need it!

On Sat, 26 Jan 2002, Joe Gates wrote: > I am sure you "listers" can give me some expert guidance. I am > involved with a working group that is starting a Register of T-Types > that are domiciled in Southern Africa. I would like to know what > definition is generally used to determine eligibility for inclusion in > such a register. It seems probable that an appropriate definition > would be something like "MG T-Types manufactured as road-going > vehicles between 1936 and 1955 that can be visually recognised as > such, regard being had to chassis, engine, gear-box and body panels, > etc., etc." > > However, a degree of latitude is probably required to accommodate > exceptional circumstances e.g. racing "specials" of that era. Also, > with the passing of time, general wear and tear, possible > unavailability of some components and concern for driver safety > (obviously the Datsun steering box for this one!!) means that most if > not all T-Types no longer conform fully to original specs, so an > "authentic" T-Type (as it left the factory) will be hard to find. > > Further, I guess one challenge relates to post-1955 racing specials > that were privately constructed by individual enthusiasts that were > based on T-Type components e.g. single seater with tubular chassis > incorporating TC XPAG engine and gear box - are they in or out? > > Lastly, I also guess there could be a classification system within the > register such as "authentic" (as it left the factory), "original" > (some components replaced with period items e.g. the engine), > "non-original" (some components replaced with non-period items e.g. > Datsun steering box), "non-authentic replica", etc., etc., suffice it > to say that kit cars would probably be a no-go zone!!! > > Your comments (send to me off-list if bulky) will be appreciated. > > Joe Gates > TC 8675 -- Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 Cub Hill, Maryland 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E fold@bcpl.net

[Mark McCombs]

Well put, Chip. Common sense can dictate what is acceptable. Its a wide mile from a special with an aluminum body to a fiberglassed VW based "MIGI". Regards Mark TC8126

----- Original Message ----- From: "Chip Old" fold@bcpl.net> To: "MG-TABC Group" mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2002 11:09 AM Subject: Re: [mg-tabc] DEFINITION - T-TYPES > Oh boy, I see another "when does a T-Type stop being a T-Type" thread > about to start. You'll never get any two owners to agree on what amount > of deviation from factory originality is acceptable. Never! > > If I were you I'd think very carefully about what the purpose of your > register is to be. If it were up to me I'd make it as inclusive as > possible. Take a relaxed approach, enjoy the cars. Record modifications > in your Register if you want to, but don't exclude a car because it > has been modified. And don't exclude specials based on T-Type componants. > They are an important part of T-Type history. > > Others here will tell you to be fairly exclusive (to exclude TCs with > Datsun steering boxes and the like). The big problem with that approach > is that someone has to decide what modifications are allowed and what > modifications are not. Experience right here in the MG-TABC mailing list > shows that it's impossible to reach concensus on that subject. > > Some will even tell you to allow only absolutely original cars, but that > policy will exclude virtually every T-Type still in existance. A register > with a membership of zero isn't much use to anyone. > > Good luck, Joe. You'll need it! > > On Sat, 26 Jan 2002, Joe Gates wrote: > > > I am sure you "listers" can give me some expert guidance. I am > > involved with a working group that is starting a Register of T-Types > > that are domiciled in Southern Africa. I would like to know what > > definition is generally used to determine eligibility for inclusion in > > such a register. It seems probable that an appropriate definition > > would be something like "MG T-Types manufactured as road-going > > vehicles between 1936 and 1955 that can be visually recognised as > > such, regard being had to chassis, engine, gear-box and body panels, > > etc., etc." > > > > However, a degree of latitude is probably required to accommodate > > exceptional circumstances e.g. racing "specials" of that era. Also, > > with the passing of time, general wear and tear, possible > > unavailability of some components and concern for driver safety > > (obviously the Datsun steering box for this one!!) means that most if > > not all T-Types no longer conform fully to original specs, so an > > "authentic" T-Type (as it left the factory) will be hard to find. > > > > Further, I guess one challenge relates to post-1955 racing specials > > that were privately constructed by individual enthusiasts that were > > based on T-Type components e.g. single seater with tubular chassis > > incorporating TC XPAG engine and gear box - are they in or out? > > > > Lastly, I also guess there could be a classification system within the > > register such as "authentic" (as it left the factory), "original" > > (some components replaced with period items e.g. the engine), > > "non-original" (some components replaced with non-period items e.g. > > Datsun steering box), "non-authentic replica", etc., etc., suffice it > > to say that kit cars would probably be a no-go zone!!! > > > > Your comments (send to me off-list if bulky) will be appreciated. > > > > Joe Gates > > TC 8675 > > -- > Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 > Cub Hill, Maryland 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E > fold@bcpl.net > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > >

[Chip Old]

On Sat, 26 Jan 2002, Mark McCombs wrote:

> Well put, Chip. > Common sense can dictate what is acceptable. Its a wide mile from a > special with an aluminum body to a fiberglassed VW based "MIGI".

Funny thing about that. Way back when I was the NEMGTR Tech Editor, I got a call one night from someone having engine problems in his "1953 MG". The more he described the problem, the more confused I became. Finally it dawned on me that hje was describing a Volkswagen engine! The car was a MIGI (or some other VW-based TD replicar). I tried to be polite, but... I wouldn't propose to include any replicars in a T-Type register. If it started life as a T-Type, or if it is based on genuine T-Type componants, then it is a T-Type regardless of degree of modification. If it started life as something else, then it is something else. -- Chip Old 1948 M.G. TC TC6710 XPAG7430 NEMGTR #2271 Cub Hill, Maryland 1962 Triumph TR4 CT3154LO CT3479E fold@bcpl.net

[Roger Furneaux]

hi Clive - my quick reply to Joe Gates was only meant to address the question of M.G. Specials, which are generally accepted to use many parts originally sourced from contemporary M.G. models, usually meaning suspension and engine/gearbox. Most employ steel tubular or space-frame chassis, with aerodynamic bodywork, usually of aluminium. I agree that the other racers' cars are some way from original, but you would be surprised how close they are. All could be easily converted back to road cars, indeed many "standard" cars owned today by Register members were once raced, and they are not even aware of the fact! ocTagonally Roger

>Message text written by "Roger Furneaux" >>Joe - a quick answer re. the "Specials" (i.e. passing the buck!) is to >point >you in the direction of Stewart Penfound, he is the T-Racing competition >sec. here in the U.K. , races a Lester-MG and knows of most of the specials >here: "Stewart Penfound" Stewart.Penfound@btinternet.com> >Reply from Clive Sherriff: >With all due respect to the fun the T Type racers get from their >hobby, a T Racer in that group, with the dramatic modifications >and additions these cars run with, bears as much relationship to the >original T Types as a Datsun Steering Box! > >Getting guidance from that source is a Vested interest if ever I saw >one! > >Same as the recent Naylor TFs for that matter - visually similar but >with modern engines cant be compared! > >A fine attempt to control catagories will be found in the VSCC >Eligibility guidelines document

[Stewart Penfound]

----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] Stewart.Penfound@btinternet.com [b]To:[/b] janus@iafrica.com [b]Sent:[/b] 28 January 2002 21:14 [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [mg-tabc] DEFINITION - T-TYPES Joe, As Roger says, I keep an eye on Specials for the T Register. I have details of 25 or so and am always keen to hear of more, so would be very interested to see what you come up with. Our definition is either an XPAG engined cars constructed roughly in the period when T Types were current models, or cars with a T Type chassis that have been significantly modified, albeit engine, bodywork or anything else. We feel these cars are just as important to MG history as those that have never been modified 'cos making them go quicker, no matter how, was what people did. John Dutton is currently our registrar for all T Types (building on Roger's excellent work over many years) and he can be conatcted on john.dutton1@virgin.net To respond to Clive's comment, I'm not biased towards Specials, even though I'm lucky enough to own and race one. I'm also restoring my TA, which I've owned since 1968. Its MPJG engine blew up the day I bought it, which put me off those engines somewhat, so it will have an XPAG, complete with Shorrocks blower, which I swopped a couple of 19" wheels for about 20 years ago. I rebuilt the TA engine, with an unused crankshaft I found in an old boy's shed, and it went with my brother's TA Tickford when I sold it for him a few years ago. That car had a TDII engine and TC gearbox, which is now in my Lester, so everyone's happy! (my brother got the money...) Come back to me off line and perhaps we can compare notes, Good hunting, Stewart Penfound Brighton UK TA 2146 Lester H0031 ----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] janus@iafrica.com [b]To:[/b] mg-tabc@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] 26 January 2002 13:02 [b]Subject:[/b] [mg-tabc] DEFINITION - T-TYPES I am sure you "listers" can give me some expert guidance. I am involved with a working group that is starting a Register of T-Types that are domiciled in Southern Africa. I would like to know what definition is generally used to determine eligibility for inclusion in such a register. It seems probable that an appropriate definition would be something like "MG T-Types manufactured as road-going vehicles between 1936 and 1955 that can be visually recognised as such, regard being had to chassis, engine, gear-box and body panels, etc., etc." However, a degree of latitude is probably required to accommodate exceptional circumstances e.g. racing "specials" of that era. Also, with the passing of time, general wear and tear, possible unavailability of some components and concern for driver safety (obviously the Datsun steering box for this one!!) means that most if not all T-Types no longer conform fully to original specs, so an "authentic" T-Type (as it left the factory) will be hard to find. Further, I guess one challenge relates to post-1955 racing specials that were privately constructed by individual enthusiasts that were based on T-Type components e.g. single seater with tubular chassis incorporating TC XPAG engine and gear box - are they in or out? Lastly, I also guess there could be a classification system within the register such as "authentic" (as it left the factory), "original" (some components replaced with period items e.g. the engine), "non-original" (some components replaced with non-period items e.g. Datsun steering box), "non-authentic replica", etc., etc., suffice it to say that kit cars would probably be a no-go zone!!! Your comments (send to me off-list if bulky) will be appreciated. Joe Gates TC 8675 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.