Wilsons Sandbox

Posted: **Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:56 pm**

#ygrps-yiv-140473284 BLOCKQUOTE.ygrps-yiv-140473284cite { PADDING-LEFT:10px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1px solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-140473284 BLOCKQUOTE.ygrps-yiv-140473284cite2 { PADDING-TOP:0px;PADDING-LEFT:10px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1px solid;MARGIN-TOP:3px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-140473284 .ygrps-yiv-140473284plain PRE { FONT-SIZE:100%;FONT-FAMILY:monospace;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-140473284 .ygrps-yiv-140473284plain TT { FONT-SIZE:100%;FONT-FAMILY:monospace;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-140473284 A IMG { BORDER-TOP:0px;BORDER-RIGHT:0px;BORDER-BOTTOM:0px;BORDER-LEFT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-140473284 #ygrps-yiv-140473284x7247ebfaf5454628868aca7d3513c640 { FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} #ygrps-yiv-140473284 .ygrps-yiv-140473284plain PRE { FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} #ygrps-yiv-140473284 .ygrps-yiv-140473284plain TT { FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} #ygrps-yiv-140473284 { FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} I can only respond as would someone, were I to make that argument: The oil filter should stop material of significant size. Unless the engine is cold/oil too thick, the total oil flow is through the filter. Placing a magnet somewhere must only affect some of the content of the oil flow so it must be haphazard at best. A back handed appeal to authority I know but the fact that manufacturers are not including magnets in oil filters or, generally, in oil systems seems to indicate that the value of magnets might be suspect. I don't see the potential for harm, so long as the magnet cannot move into interference areas, so like a magnetic drain plug or add one to the outside of spin on filters but that isn't because I can support the benefit. Placing a magnet into the oil flow may simply result in small particles, which one assumes to be the main material which a magnet might remove, being flushed from the magnet by the oil flow. The smaller is a particle, the larger the surface area in comparison with its mass. Since magnetic attraction is relative to the mass, smaller stuff is easier to flush off. I'm not asserting that this is impractical, simply stating that I don't accept the argument as presented. Were I to place a magnet into the oil filter cavity, I would wish it to be secured so that it cannot move around and possibly cause damage/puncture of the filter media. It would also be needful for it to be easily cleaned. I agree that it should be placed in an area where it will affect as much oil as practical but don't know how to quantify the effects of oil flushing material from the magnet. Anything over about 25 microns should be caught by the oil filter and this includes all types of materials. The magnet, at best, will only capture a small portion of magnetic material while the filter should capture materials of any composition. One benefit might be for people who insist on using oil of too thick base weight which causes the filter bypass valve to remain open for more time than is intended. One issue is that basic physics shows that magnetic attraction decreases as a square of the distance so the effect becomes immediately so weak as to be insignificant, especially given the viscosity of the oil and time in which the magnet has to act on materials in proximity. Very high strength magnets such as high powered electromagnets acting on stationary oil might have significant effect but one must question other conditions. Some of the material cleaned from magnetic drain plugs is clearly not magnetic (wash it off, then try to pick up all of the material by using a magnet over the settled material) which leads me to conclude that much of the material has simply settled onto and into the irregular "stuff" on the magnet. Interesting subject but one which seems to lack data to support the use of magnets. "Seems" to me perhaps because I understand so little about the effects and conditions. All this is fun to think about. I know there's research being done to test whether dumping iron particles into spilled oil, then using magnets to retrieve the oil but that's a completely different...opposite effect than what we are considering. Interesting though. ------ Original Message ------ From: "mark ward" To: "DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com>; "Norm Keller" Sent: 2014-10-31 12:10:53 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Motion Pro Oil Filter Magnet

I would say YES! Based on the Drain plug Mag, collecting metal "dust". The faster it takes it out of the oil cycling threw the Engine & Clutch plates ETC ETC. the better. Where? (What end?) 1st thought. Closest to the engine side, where the 1st side hole in the tube dumps oil into the filter, BEFORE Leaving the filter. On Friday, October 31, 2014 1:56 PM, "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote: My son has a computer systems business so I recycle some old hard drives by saving the magnets to stick on the outside of spin on oil filters. It amuses me to think that it might help something and costs nothing. I just snap the magnet to the end of the filter and switch to the next during the oil change. It's likely the same for those Motion Pro magnets. I'd expect to see magnets included into oil filters if there were a demonstrable advantage though so simply amuse myself thinking that it can do no harm. What if it magnetizes the liquid tungsten and generates eddy currents making my crankcase vent glow in the dark? Sorry, was thinking of those woo products which use magnets to "orient the molecules of the fuel" so improve mileage and other fantastic claims. Cleaning the goo off a drain plug or oil filter cavity magnet adds to the tactile experience but couldn't begin to construct an argument to defend that these magnets actually are useful. I suppose we could do a survey here in which we use a magnet on alternate oil changes and compare the oil analysis reports? Might be fun and would be interesting to learn the reported outcomes. Not certain that the study model would provide the data expected but willing to opt in if we had 20 or so others who would do so for, say... four oil changes. That would be two with magnet & two without. Time of year/temperatures, oil types and riding conditions would have an effect so summer might provide more consistent conditions.

Posted: **Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:35 pm**

Hoping you have more thoughts/ideas in this regards, Mark. My intention is not to "win" an argument. I'm interested in how one might best apply use of a magnet(s) and then to decide whether the effort and risks, if any, balance the perceived advantage.

Posted: **Sat Nov 01, 2014 6:44 pm**

Hey Norm Fact: When ever I have changed oil, and there is a Magnetic plug, there is always some metal deposit (dust like) stuck to the Magnet. It may be super fine, But it still STEEL power rubbing on Alum, in some areas. If the ring or small mag, fits on and INTO the end for the filter, it may trap the Micron STEEL particles INSIDE the filter, stopping them from further passing around the engine. Risk? Just theory On Saturday, November 1, 2014 2:04 PM, "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hoping you have more thoughts/ideas in this regards, Mark. My intention is not to "win" an argument. I'm interested in how one might best apply use of a magnet(s) and then to decide whether the effort and risks, if any, balance the perceived advantage.

Posted: **Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:56 pm**

#ygrps-yiv-1392426669 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-1392426669cite {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;} #ygrps-yiv-1392426669 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-1392426669cite2 {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;margin-top:3px;padding-top:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1392426669 .ygrps-yiv-1392426669plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-1392426669 .ygrps-yiv-1392426669plain tt {font-family:monospace;font-size:100%;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1392426669 a img {border:0px;}#ygrps-yiv-1392426669 {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-1392426669 .ygrps-yiv-1392426669plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-1392426669 .ygrps-yiv-1392426669plain tt {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} I can't imagine any downside of removing materials from the oil, regardless of whether it's done by the filter or some other means. That's why I've been sticking the hard drive magnets onto spin on filters. The only particles which should be present inside the filter would be those of If the filter bypass is open, oil flow might not be significant in the end cap area. I think some industrial equipment used magnets as part of oil filtration so an old friend my have some thoughts. I'm still bothered by the problem of pulling particles any significant distance from viscous moving oil. No problem I can see if one were to stick some magnets onto the filter end cap but think the media and glue mostly separate the end cap from oil by quite some distance on the inside. Mine needs an oil change soon so will see if some magnets can be stuck in there, just for fun. I'll want to make certain that the magnets can't move or they may wear more material away and make things worse. The KLR does shake and rattle.

Let's give it a shot and seem how much stuff sticks onto the magnets. If little to nothing, then that's that, but if a bunch of stuff shows up that might indicate something worth following up. < Hey Norm Fact: When ever I have changed oil, and there is a Magnetic plug, there is always some metal deposit (dust like) stuck to the Magnet. It may be super fine, But it still STEEL power rubbing on Alum, in some areas. If the ring or small mag, fits on and INTO the end for the filter, it may trap the Micron STEEL particles INSIDE the filter, stopping them from further passing around the engine. Risk? Just theory>

Posted: **Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:24 pm**

HEY Norm Topic said above, "Win an Argument". I always like a good friendly DEBATE, If you can make me think more (DEEPER) on a topic, I get more educated.If you can show me, (what how why etc) and Prove me wrong, OR Just another way, GREAT. I WIN AGAIN BY LEARNING MORE. It has been said, I hate being wrong. They were/are RIGHT, What kind of fool Wants to be wrong? I do enjoy (LOVE) being PROVEN wrong, Because then, I now know what was right, making me right in the future. Just think where Science would be if, everyone stopped with one opinion, or un-proven "facts". I still waiting for Jeff S. to jump in on the "Magent debate", I have great respect for his KNOWLEDGE. (& opinions) On Saturday, November 1, 2014 10:56 PM, "'Norm Keller' normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I can't imagine any downside of removing materials from the oil, regardless of whether it's done by the filter or some other means. That's why I've been sticking the hard drive magnets onto spin on filters. The only particles which should be present inside the filter would be those of If the filter bypass is open, oil flow might not be significant in the end cap area. I think some industrial equipment used magnets as part of oil filtration so an old friend my have some thoughts. I'm still bothered by the problem of pulling particles any significant distance from viscous moving oil. No problem I can see if one were to stick some magnets onto the filter end cap but think the media and glue mostly separate the end cap from oil by quite some distance on the inside. Mine needs an oil change soon so will see if some magnets can be stuck in there, just for fun. I'll want to make certain that the magnets can't move or they may wear more material away and make things worse. The KLR does shake and rattle. Let's give it a shot and seem how much stuff sticks onto the magnets. If little to nothing, then that's that, but if a bunch of stuff shows up that might indicate something worth following up. < Hey Norm Fact: When ever I have changed oil, and there is a Magnetic plug, there is always some metal deposit (dust like) stuck to the Magnet. It may be super fine, But it still STEEL power rubbing on Alum, in some areas. If the ring or small mag, fits on and INTO the end for the filter, it may trap the Micron STEEL particles INSIDE the filter, stopping them from further passing around the engine. Risk? Just theory>

Posted: **Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:31 pm**

#ygrps-yiv-785765218 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-785765218cite {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;} #ygrps-yiv-785765218 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-785765218cite2 {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;margin-top:3px;padding-top:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-785765218 .ygrps-yiv-785765218plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-785765218 .ygrps-yiv-785765218plain tt {font-family:monospace;font-size:100%;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-785765218 a img {border:0px;}#ygrps-yiv-785765218 {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-785765218 .ygrps-yiv-785765218plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-785765218 .ygrps-yiv-785765218plain tt {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} All learning is, in effect, the discovery that one has been wrong in some measure. A share the discomfort at the discovery that I'm wrong but am getting better at switching to enjoying the experience. Confirmation bias may be the greatest threat to human existence, IMO. The magnetic effect is interesting, especially that of the apparent volume of material one sometimes finds on sump magnets. I read claims that much of the material is non-magnetic "stuff" which is supported by a small amount of particles. Here's an article which makes some interesting points but since it's not in a peer reviewed journal, one has no way to determine how valid are its arguments: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/794/magnetic-filtration Some problems I anticipate in gaining a useful effect from a magnet in oil are as follows. I'm hoping that you will help to develop these and other factors so that my understanding can improve. I've dialoged on issues of this kind before where it was shown that concepts held were not as believed. Perhaps Jeff or others will weigh in to offer some "shaft of light" because the unknowns in this area seem insurmountable for non-scientists. 1) Magnetism weakens as a square with distance so the effect can only be useful when acting on particles which are very close to the magnet. One is not going to pull particles from across the sump, for example. This quote from that article points to this issue: "Magnets used in some filters can have flux density (magnetic strength) as high as 28,000 gauss. Compare this level to an ordinary refrigerator magnet of between 60 and 80 gauss." 2) The viscous effect of the oil will reduce the ability of the magnet to attract particles. 3) Movement of the oil will remove most particles from the proximity of the magnet before they can be extracted from the oil column. 4) Larger particles will have the most chance of being removed by magnetism because their mass provides the maximum attractive tension while their surface area to mass ratio will be smaller. Much the same as improved ballistic coefficient. 5) Oil movement may serve to dislodge clumps of particles which may pose more threat to the components than did individual and separated particles. 6) While we don't generally like the idea of metal particles in the oil, their presence may have no effect on the system. "Everyone knows" is not evidence, especially because "everyone" generally knows spit.

The oil filtration issue makes me think of the 1960's Hondas, such as CB125, CB160, CB175, which used a centrifugal oil "filter" on the right end of the crankshaft. There was a spring loaded sleeve in the side cover which pressed into the end of the "filter" in order to convey oil into the "filter"housing. I think there were three little agitator paddles which helped to swirl the oil. When one did an oil change, one was to remove the cap on the side cover, remove the JIS Phillips screw holding the "filter" end cap and then scrape and wipe the sludge from the periphery of the housing. It would often be like scraping out hardened gasket material because it its density. Spin a 2 inch or bit bigger drum at 10,000 RPM and it throws out quite a bit of solids from the oil. That makes me think of the material one encounters on sump magnets, although the magnet deposits aren't hard. The stuff seems similar though. Maybe that was mainly iron particles also, but hadn't considered this before. Links back to your insight regarding being encouraged to think deeper and longer on some question.

Often I think that I give more lip service to these things that I recognize.... (face red). Next time my friend does an oil change on his beautiful, one owner, CB160 Honda, I will ask for the stuff from the rotary "filter" to see if a magnet will grab any when it's ground up. Would not have thought of that without this encouragement.

So, how much stuff does one think will be grabbed by a small magnet in the oil filter housing? Hmm, worth a shot although where to put the magnets is still a question. Perhaps Paul or Tom will have thoughts (as both have been considering that area in greater depth)? I'm mindful of the potential to do more harm than good if one simply concentrates stuff which is then reintroduced into the oil flow. Also wouldn't be good to have the magnet moving around so will need to consider attaching. Attaching to the filter end cap, as you initially suggested, might be the simpler and safer way to begin. I had not considered the risk of having magnetized particles (which will be the effect on any which are attracted to the magnet) subsequently stick to an area such as a bearing race... hmm, that's a worry as might pose more risk than benefit. Placing the magnet before the filter seems the best strategy. Rats! Just noticed I'm out of filters so will have to get some...and no winter oil which is suitable. Time to get on the phone.

Posted: **Mon Nov 03, 2014 6:29 pm**

1. How much damage can the dust particles cause? To remove old wax build up on cars, they use Clay, (& water) Feels super smooth, But is abrasive. and when riding 3000-4000 miles thats alot of rubbing. How strong? I get these little 1/2inch x 18/th thick, earth? Magnets that are very strong, They surprise me when I try pulling straight off the fridge. until I get it to tilt, I can't pull it straight off.(My daughter works at a factory that makes Surgical tools, and some of the magnets that are coated in a "plastic" are damaged (chipped etc) so the employees get to take them.) On Monday, November 3, 2014 12:48 PM, "normkel32@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Before someone points to the obvious, allow a face palm: Sometimes I'm too dumb for words. If magnetizing and rebroadcasting material was an issue, then likely we should remove the alternator rotor because it will have much more effect than a magnet in the oil sump or filter housing....right? Not certain that this speaks to the potential for forming and dislodging lumps of material but one thing off the list of questions. Might feel less foolish if could hide the rotor magnet thing... ;-) Off to cool my red face. #ygrps-yiv-74021420 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539 -- #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539ygrp-mkp { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;} #ygrps-yiv-74021420 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539ygrp-mkp hr { border:1px solid #d8d8d8;} #ygrps-yiv-74021420 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539hd { color:#628c2a;font-size:85%;font-weight:700;line-height:122%;margin:10px 0;} #ygrps-yiv-74021420 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539ygrp-mkp #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539ads { margin-bottom:10px;} #ygrps-yiv-74021420 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539ygrp-mkp .ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539ad { padding:0 0;} #ygrps-yiv-74021420 #ygrps-yiv-74021420yiv5814544539 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