carbs & simplicity

[Eddie]

I gotta defend electronics. I bought a f.i. Honda with 113,000 on it and it's still going....14 years after I sold it. All I ever did was brakes, valve adjustment +f ilter and fluid changes. I have a riding buddy with over 100,000 miles on her 12 year old DL1000 that might argue for f.i.,too. I suppose it boils down to taking care of a vehicle. The sale papers are full of low mile street bikes with a new clutch, recent "overhaul" or new chain and sprockets (after just 6k miles). That isn't the bikes fault. There are fuel injected 125cc bikes on the road. Why not on a 650 single? Cold starts and E10 would be less of an issue while better power and economy a bonus: Not to mention point and click tunability for mods such as a pipe or intake change! -eddie  

----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] jokerloco9@... [DSN_KLR650] [b]To:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com ; RJTaylor@... [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, July 07, 2014 6:19 PM [b]Subject:[/b] [Bulk] Re: [DSN_KLR650] KLR Rant  

Many people like the KLR because it is lawnmower stupid simple.  A KLR with perhaps 20k miles and 10-20 years on it is going to be a lot easier to keep running than any fuel injection.  Just take a trip through any junkyard, and look at all of the 15-25 year old vehicles there that look fine and you wonder why they are there.  I'm also talking about V12 S500 Mercedes and Jags.  It is because this electrinic stuff put on vehicles today that works very well when new, turns into complicated, expensive dogs down the road.  True, this is usually near the reasonable life of the vehicle, but if you need to keep your vehicle going for many, many years, a carb is far easier.   When was the last time you saw someone restore a 25 year old computer controlled car?  Hoe often do you see someone restore a 50 year old carb car?   Jeff

[Norm Keller]

The problem with the concept of "one click" adjustments is the application. Where does one obtain the new PROM coding? How does one load the information into the PROM?

 

People develop new ECMs for vehicles, develop the look-up page data, load it to the new ECM and go driving/riding but this is not simple stuff, as you are aware. Not wishing this to sound like an argument but rather a discussion/examination by people who respect one another's views.

 

One example I can offer is the Honda ST1100 compared with the ST1300. 1300's often have low speed throttle snatch which Honda has never cured. There are several work arounds and some after market attempts such as a fuel pressure regulator. The 1100's carbs produce butter smooth operation. One can stick an 1100 into 5th gear at 35 mph and open the throttle. It will pull itself smoothly up to 145 mph (or so I heard from the sister of a girl who used to date a guy, whose brother might have over heard this in a bar)

 

I like EFI and have worked with EFI & carbs in applications from motorcycles, marine and automotive. The big market applications such as automotive allow investment in development and upgrading (flash) but small markets such as motorcycles get pinched out because of small numbers. A friend related an anecdote regarding a Yamaha sport bike which could not be made to run properly in (I think) the Los Vegas area so Yamaha finally bought it back. It was subsequently sold through a California dealer to a customer who was completely happy. Difference? The fuel was different in the two areas and the bike could not be set up to compensate.

 

Visits to car dearships indicated frequent "reflash" of the vehicles' EPROMs to update/adjust/compensate. A not unknown consequence was that some vehicles would run worse following the reflash because our area was a bit different from the anticipated. The reflash could not be reversed because the old data could not be stored.

 

I really like the way in which a well functioning  EFI system operates but think that it is not as likely to be the big success in the bike industry because of the tiny numbers.

 

Another issue is that the bike industry is not part of OBD2 or other industry scanner/data stream standards which forces the use of specific manufacturer scanners. This ties the diagnosis to the dealer which has obvious down sides, IME.

 

Having spent many, many hours going through and testing sensors, breaking out wiring harness circuits...

 

Another problem, especially related to motorcycles, is the experience base. The size of the automotive industry provides a large anecdotal evidence base for diagnosis and repair. The size of this makes informal web and commercial information exchanges viable. I don't see that for the bike industry...I could very likely be wrong but here's a pair of examples:

 

1) I repair motorcycle ABS brake modulators (and other components). So far as know, I'm it for this planet. I get them from all over the world on a continual basis because (presumably) no one else understands how to diagnose and repair them. One reason might be that I'm smarter than everyone else but that's ridiculous. A more likely reason is that the market size is so small that no one else has been able to invest the time and research...  Tiny bike market.

 

2) Even a bike which is a long lived and common/popular as the KLR650 has problems which are often seen for the first time. Not the case with cars because the sample size is to large.

 

I'm waiting to hear the results from some EFI projects for the KLR but think I won't be investing a big chunk of dollars into my cheap and crude motorcycle because the investment will be too large a percentage of the value to the machine. If such a system added 5 hp....what if it increased fuel mileage by 20%? It would never pay for itself. This would not be the case for a $20,000 daily driven car....

 

Pong back to you because I do value your thoughts...

[Desert Datsuns]

That may be, but there are also other issues that are more easily resolved by using efi. Cold start and altitude changes being two of them. As for your incident with the Harley, a loose wire doesn't mean that efi is a bad idea. I have a CRF450X with headlight issues that I can't find an answer for....but I won't blame the Hondas electronics as being an inherently bad idea. Like you, it's likely a loose connection somewhere, I just haven't found it yet. People said all these things back in the 80's when automotive carbs were disappearing. But now look at the field, very few people would want a new car with a carb. Bike efi is making leaps and bounds every year, just like the cars did early on. They will have it all perfected real soon. In another 5 years cabrs will be gone, and everyone will wonder why it took so long to get rid of them.RyanPhoenix "mark ward nomad59@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:  

As John Biccum pointed out. (In "Rants") There are many road (AND OFF ROAD) "issues" that can NOT be resolved with Computerized fuel injected bikes, THAT CAN BE SOLVED With simple carbed bikes. (KLR etc.) I other fields I have seen the same ISSUES! This last winter my 97 F250HD, the  460 (7.5 L) engine started acting funny. symptom's varied greatly and at different RPM's & speeds.Thinking the Computer was bad, I broke down and paid $395. to have it looked at & repaired. $98. (ya not a simple even $100.) was to hook it up to their computer to see what was wrong.     SIMPLY A bad PLUG WIRE.   The computer was trying to compensate for an intermittent  miss, causing the symptoms TO CHANGE. In the Food Industry, most think the fancy ($$$$$) more "efficient"? new (last 20+yrs) computerized equipment is the only way to go.  Then when the smallest thing goes wrong, THEY ARE DOWN. One January, Panera Bread was down 3 nights in a row. Parts, Computer's etc ($$$$$) were flown in next day air. $$$   They start cooking about 11pm, The ovens were working fine each DAY, we checked them over, changing things, and at night, they would go in and out. On the 3rd night, I was brought in on the issue, (I live & think outside the "BOX") We we on the roof of the large Mall, ICE AND WIND, Blowing us backwords as we CRAWLED hands and knees.  After About 1/2 I realized, everytime a wind gust came over the tall peak the guy below (WARM INSIDE) see a change. The Wind gust would push on the vent and change the exhaust readings, so the computer would comensate or just simply shut down. (PROTECTION)