red lights that don't change

[Jeff Khoury]

I've been on these KLR boards for a while and I've read almost every article about the KLR imaginable. I've also read a great deal about engines in general. The proponents of the ThermoBob, in my opinion, are missing a very important concept when it comes to 4-stroke engine cooling: oil temperature. It's not your water temperature that's important in your engine. It's the OIL temperature. Water temperature can (I emphasize CAN) be an indicator of your oil temperature, but not always. Your oil is what directly cools the moving parts of your engine in addition to lubricating them. It also facilitates the movement of heat within the engine, transferring it to the crankcase, heads, cylinder walls, etc. so it can be exchanged to the liquid cooling system. Now, when a bike is idling, the engine produces very little heat comparatively. The water temperature will rise quickly however because there is no air moving through the radiator to take away the heat that is generated. Your engine's oil (the important part) is really not that hot, you've just exceeded the capacity of your water cooling system to shed the heat without the necessary airflow. Conversely, when you're hauling ass down the freeway, your engine is producing TONS of heat. Your oil temperature will climb very high, yet your water temperature can get quite low because there is plenty of air to take that heat out of the water. However, heat can only exchange to the liquid cooling system through the metal of the engine so fast, so while your water stays cool, your engine is hot, hot, hot. It needs the inlet water temperature to be as low as possible in this instance to allow heat to exchange as fast as it can. Shortcutting this cycle with a ThermoBob is raising the inlet water temperature at a time when it is MOST NEEDED. Install an oil temp gauge and take your bike for an idle, then a spin on the highway. You will see that what I'm saying is absolutely true. Then go ask a race car mechanic if he ever has too much cooling on his race car. I will never buy a ThermoBob or a bike that has been equipped with one. -Jeff Khoury [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Thomas Landmann]

Interesting! Now I no longer feel guilty for being too cheap to buy a T-Bob. There is at least a compelling argument against. Generally, I am in the camp that says the KLR, being a compromise, does nothing exceptionally well, but quite a lot "acceptably well". Over farkling a KLR is not usually money well spent. For me, I draw the line at better than average tires and protection for expensive plastic. Tom

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 8:09 PM, Jeff Khoury wrote: > ** > > Conversely, when you're hauling ass down the freeway, your engine is > producing TONS of heat. Your oil temperature will climb very high, yet your > water temperature can get quite low because there is plenty of air to take > that heat out of the water. However, heat can only exchange to the liquid > cooling system through the metal of the engine so fast, so while your water > stays cool, your engine is hot, hot, hot. It needs the inlet water > temperature to be as low as possible in this instance to allow heat to > exchange as fast as it can. Shortcutting this cycle with a ThermoBob is > raising the inlet water temperature at a time when it is MOST NEEDED. > > -- Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Saline]

On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Jeff Khoury writes:

> I've been on these KLR boards for a while and I've read almost every > article about the KLR imaginable. I've also read a great deal about > engines in general. > > The proponents of the ThermoBob, in my opinion, are missing a very > important concept when it comes to 4-stroke engine cooling: oil > temperature.

BIG SNIP <><><><><> <><><><><> Jeff, Maybe take a look at Wattman's site and some of his data. http://watt-man.xanga.com/ In the Testing Results / History area there is a comparison of oil temps on Wattman's bike with and without the T-Bob. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT . . ____________________________________________________________ 57 Year Old Mom Looks 27! Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4e000536c45b9f47best04vuc

[tomatocity]

By chance do you use the user name of Damocles on other forums? Folks if you are considering the Thermo-bob you can listen to satisfied users or educated and well versed non-users. Your choice. Tim (user for 25,000+ miles)

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Jeff Khoury wrote: > ** > > > I've been on these KLR boards for a while and I've read almost every > article about the KLR imaginable. I've also read a great deal about engines > in general. > > The proponents of the ThermoBob, in my opinion, are missing a very > important concept when it comes to 4-stroke engine cooling: oil temperature. > > > It's not your water temperature that's important in your engine. It's the > OIL temperature. Water temperature can (I emphasize CAN) be an indicator of > your oil temperature, but not always. Your oil is what directly cools the > moving parts of your engine in addition to lubricating them. It also > facilitates the movement of heat within the engine, transferring it to the > crankcase, heads, cylinder walls, etc. so it can be exchanged to the liquid > cooling system. > > Now, when a bike is idling, the engine produces very little heat > comparatively. The water temperature will rise quickly however because there > is no air moving through the radiator to take away the heat that is > generated. Your engine's oil (the important part) is really not that hot, > you've just exceeded the capacity of your water cooling system to shed the > heat without the necessary airflow. > > Conversely, when you're hauling ass down the freeway, your engine is > producing TONS of heat. Your oil temperature will climb very high, yet your > water temperature can get quite low because there is plenty of air to take > that heat out of the water. However, heat can only exchange to the liquid > cooling system through the metal of the engine so fast, so while your water > stays cool, your engine is hot, hot, hot. It needs the inlet water > temperature to be as low as possible in this instance to allow heat to > exchange as fast as it can. Shortcutting this cycle with a ThermoBob is > raising the inlet water temperature at a time when it is MOST NEEDED. > > Install an oil temp gauge and take your bike for an idle, then a spin on > the highway. You will see that what I'm saying is absolutely true. > > Then go ask a race car mechanic if he ever has too much cooling on his race > car. > > I will never buy a ThermoBob or a bike that has been equipped with one. > > -Jeff Khoury > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Khoury]

I looked at the data. I do not contest the data, I just don't agree with his conclusions. A consistent temperature is not a bad thing. Increasing oil temp in highway driving IS a bad thing, because that is when your engine is producing the most HP, thereby consuming the most fuel and generating the most heat. Shedding that heat is the #1 priority. Looking at water temperature is NOT an accurate way to tell what's going on where metal meets metal. Heat causes thinning of the oil, thermal breakdown of the oil and expansion (and increased wear) on internal parts. -Jeff Khoury

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Saline" To: jeff@... Cc: "DSN KLR650" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:41:20 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] ThermoBob and why I think it's a "Bad Idea"(tm) On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Jeff Khoury writes: > I've been on these KLR boards for a while and I've read almost every > article about the KLR imaginable. I've also read a great deal about > engines in general. > > The proponents of the ThermoBob, in my opinion, are missing a very > important concept when it comes to 4-stroke engine cooling: oil > temperature. BIG SNIP <><><><><> <><><><><> Jeff, Maybe take a look at Wattman's site and some of his data. http://watt-man.xanga.com/ In the Testing Results / History area there is a comparison of oil temps on Wattman's bike with and without the T-Bob. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT . . ____________________________________________________________ 57 Year Old Mom Looks 27! Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4e000536c28eaf43fast05vuc

[Jeff Khoury]

Nope, but you will find me as either: dsrtegl or The-Mariner -Jeff Khoury From: "tomatocity" To: "Jeff Khoury" Cc: "DSN KLR650" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:57:01 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] ThermoBob and why I think it's a "Bad Idea"(tm) By chance do you use the user name of Damocles on other forums? Folks if you are considering the Thermo-bob you can listen to satisfied users or educated and well versed non-users. Your choice. Tim (user for 25,000+ miles)

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Jeff Khoury < jeff@... > wrote: I've been on these KLR boards for a while and I've read almost every article about the KLR imaginable. I've also read a great deal about engines in general. The proponents of the ThermoBob, in my opinion, are missing a very important concept when it comes to 4-stroke engine cooling: oil temperature. It's not your water temperature that's important in your engine. It's the OIL temperature. Water temperature can (I emphasize CAN) be an indicator of your oil temperature, but not always. Your oil is what directly cools the moving parts of your engine in addition to lubricating them. It also facilitates the movement of heat within the engine, transferring it to the crankcase, heads, cylinder walls, etc. so it can be exchanged to the liquid cooling system. Now, when a bike is idling, the engine produces very little heat comparatively. The water temperature will rise quickly however because there is no air moving through the radiator to take away the heat that is generated. Your engine's oil (the important part) is really not that hot, you've just exceeded the capacity of your water cooling system to shed the heat without the necessary airflow. Conversely, when you're hauling ass down the freeway, your engine is producing TONS of heat. Your oil temperature will climb very high, yet your water temperature can get quite low because there is plenty of air to take that heat out of the water. However, heat can only exchange to the liquid cooling system through the metal of the engine so fast, so while your water stays cool, your engine is hot, hot, hot. It needs the inlet water temperature to be as low as possible in this instance to allow heat to exchange as fast as it can. Shortcutting this cycle with a ThermoBob is raising the inlet water temperature at a time when it is MOST NEEDED. Install an oil temp gauge and take your bike for an idle, then a spin on the highway. You will see that what I'm saying is absolutely true. Then go ask a race car mechanic if he ever has too much cooling on his race car. I will never buy a ThermoBob or a bike that has been equipped with one. -Jeff Khoury [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Khoury]

And just because I don't agree with every gadget salesman on the internet does not make me uneducated or not well-versed. I exercise critical-thinking when presented with a solution. The first question to ask is: "Is this really a problem that needs fixing? Is it even a problem at all?" Then I go look up articles by people who have done research in a related field. I look up other examples of cooling system bypasses (like the stock one on my DL1000) and compare it to the one being sold. Finding HUGE differences in the systems designed by engineers and the one being sold here, I then become skeptical about exactly how beneficial this device is. I presented my opinion and the reasoning behind it. Your argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy. Just because a lot of people use it does not mean it is effective. A lot of people believe that homeopathy works too, but they're wrong. -Jeff Khoury From: "tomatocity" To: "Jeff Khoury" Cc: "DSN KLR650" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:57:01 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] ThermoBob and why I think it's a "Bad Idea"(tm) By chance do you use the user name of Damocles on other forums? Folks if you are considering the Thermo-bob you can listen to satisfied users or educated and well versed non-users. Your choice. Tim (user for 25,000+ miles)

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 6:09 PM, Jeff Khoury < jeff@... > wrote: I've been on these KLR boards for a while and I've read almost every article about the KLR imaginable. I've also read a great deal about engines in general. The proponents of the ThermoBob, in my opinion, are missing a very important concept when it comes to 4-stroke engine cooling: oil temperature. It's not your water temperature that's important in your engine. It's the OIL temperature. Water temperature can (I emphasize CAN) be an indicator of your oil temperature, but not always. Your oil is what directly cools the moving parts of your engine in addition to lubricating them. It also facilitates the movement of heat within the engine, transferring it to the crankcase, heads, cylinder walls, etc. so it can be exchanged to the liquid cooling system. Now, when a bike is idling, the engine produces very little heat comparatively. The water temperature will rise quickly however because there is no air moving through the radiator to take away the heat that is generated. Your engine's oil (the important part) is really not that hot, you've just exceeded the capacity of your water cooling system to shed the heat without the necessary airflow. Conversely, when you're hauling ass down the freeway, your engine is producing TONS of heat. Your oil temperature will climb very high, yet your water temperature can get quite low because there is plenty of air to take that heat out of the water. However, heat can only exchange to the liquid cooling system through the metal of the engine so fast, so while your water stays cool, your engine is hot, hot, hot. It needs the inlet water temperature to be as low as possible in this instance to allow heat to exchange as fast as it can. Shortcutting this cycle with a ThermoBob is raising the inlet water temperature at a time when it is MOST NEEDED. Install an oil temp gauge and take your bike for an idle, then a spin on the highway. You will see that what I'm saying is absolutely true. Then go ask a race car mechanic if he ever has too much cooling on his race car. I will never buy a ThermoBob or a bike that has been equipped with one. -Jeff Khoury [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Jeff Khoury]

It doesn't make me more confident in his analysis when I read stuff like this (from the Thermo-Bob site): // "And the hotter you run the coolant, more of the heat of combustion goes into pushing down on the piston rather than being sucked out by cold cylinder walls (i.e., better mileage)." // "Heat" does not "push" the piston. The expansion of gasses caused by burning a stochiometric mixture of fuel and air pushes the piston. Heat is an undesirable by-product of combustion. It is an inefficiency. Energy is being turned into waste heat rather than rotational force. -Jeff Khoury

----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Saline" To: jeff@... Cc: "DSN KLR650" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 7:41:20 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] ThermoBob and why I think it's a "Bad Idea"(tm) On Mon, 20 Jun 2011 18:09:02 -0700 (PDT) Jeff Khoury writes: > I've been on these KLR boards for a while and I've read almost every > article about the KLR imaginable. I've also read a great deal about > engines in general. > > The proponents of the ThermoBob, in my opinion, are missing a very > important concept when it comes to 4-stroke engine cooling: oil > temperature. BIG SNIP <><><><><> <><><><><> Jeff, Maybe take a look at Wattman's site and some of his data. http://watt-man.xanga.com/ In the Testing Results / History area there is a comparison of oil temps on Wattman's bike with and without the T-Bob. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT . . ____________________________________________________________ 57 Year Old Mom Looks 27! Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4e000536c28eaf43fast05vuc

[skypilot110]

You people are all missing one very important point. Today it is oficially summer. Stop talking and go hit the trails. In fact stop workign and go hit the trails if need be.

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Jeff Khoury wrote: > > I've been on these KLR boards for a while and I've read almost every article about the KLR imaginable. I've also read a great deal about engines in general. >

[Jeff Khoury]

I never stopped. One of the few advantages of living in California. The weather never gets so bad that I can't ride to work. The coldest commute I had was in January at about 38 degrees, and it never rains harder than a steady shower. New Year's Day, all the drunks were still in bed and I was flogging the KLR on "The Snake". http://on.fb.me/fOWzBr -Jeff Khoury From: "skypilot110" To: "DSN KLR650" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 8:19:04 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: ThermoBob and why I think it's a "Bad Idea"(tm) You people are all missing one very important point. Today it is oficially summer. Stop talking and go hit the trails. In fact stop workign and go hit the trails if need be.

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com , Jeff Khoury wrote: > > I've been on these KLR boards for a while and I've read almost every article about the KLR imaginable. I've also read a great deal about engines in general. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]