Wilsons Sandbox

Posted: **Mon Jun 12, 2000 2:06 pm**

>There is nothing wrong with removing the cams if you understand cam

timing well enough to put it back together correctly and have the manual to guide you. REminds me of an old tale I heard when I was a kid. Hmmmm Wonder if I ever really grew up. ha ha Anyway, the saying was that old BMW's didn't have timing marks. If you were not good enuff to use a degree wheel and dial indicator, then you were not good enuff to work on the bike / car? :0)... Kidding aside, heck , just read what the good people in here write about the valve adj. proceedures, pay attention and go for it. I also remove the coil along with the fan motor/radiator for easy access. Works for me. So far , at 4000, the valves are good. a bit on the tight end but not dangerous yet. Drove first KLR 20K without changing any shims. Luck I reckon. My Beemer recomends every 6K miles also but do it at 12K miles as have not had any out enuff to get excited about on the R11GS in 50 K miles. Good Luck Andy Chesley

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 1:50 pm**

I didn't check the arrows on the cam sprockets, only the cam lobes themselves. If the cam timing is on I think the cam lobes should be in one of two positions at TDC, either pointing inward towards each other, or 180 degrees away from that, pointing outwards, which is the easiest position to check the clearances as far as getting a feeler gauge in there. I think when they're pointing toward each other, it's TDC on the end of the exhaust stroke and the beginning of the intake stroke, with the intake valves about to open. When they are pointing outwards, away from each other, it would be TDC on the end of the compression stroke and the beginning of the power stroke. If I'm wrong then my cam timing is seriously out, but it wouldn't have jumped that many teeth. The bike did run reasonably well for 100 miles after I bought it. I had it up to 70mph. Probably burned a valve running them too tight. I will go back and double check the cam timing and also the balancer system timing and also the doo at that time. Doing those checks is easier then tearing down the top end, which I hope to avoid for now, but I'm not holding my breath. Thanks for the comments, Ian --- Greg May wrote:

> I think I might have your problem, I can't check my > bike to verify I'm right because it's apart waiting > for shims but I think one of your cams is out of > time by 180*, I'm pretty sure that when you time the > cams you set the timing mark o the "T" and the have > the arrow on BOTH of your cams pointing toward the > front of the engine, I'll try to verify and get back > to you....enjoy the evening....Greg > > ocpianoman wrote: Good idea, > but I don't have the compressor or fitting. I was > hoping > for someone to chime in with a way of disabling the > KACR and screwing > a standard compression tester into the spark plug > hole and checking > the compression the traditional way. > > I do like the idea of putting a little oil in the > spark plug hole. > Chances are I've washed the cylinder very well with > all the starter > fluid and gas I've put in there... > > And yes, I've used two new plugs so far, They come > out very slightly > damp and smelling of gas but not what I'd call wet. > > And, while I triple checked the valve clearances I > did not check the > cam timing carefully. When at TDC, both cam lobes > either point towards > each other or point away from each other, so I'll > bet the cam timing > is on, but I will have to carefully verify that. > > Thanks for the suggestions. Keep 'em coming! It's > awesome to be able > to tap into the collective intelligence and > experience here. > > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "gmay131313" > wrote: > > > > Since you checked and rechecked your valve > adjustment and cam > > timing you can if you have a compressor do a quick > check for problems > > in the top end. You need an air fitting that will > screw into the > > sparkplug hole so you can pressureize the > cylinder, can be auto store > > bought or made. You need a compressor with enough > storage to > > pressurize the cylinnder to 100 psi or close > without cycling on, you > > need quiet. > > For safety support the bike so the back tire is > off the ground, > > turn the engine to TDC as if you were checking the > valves and then > > put the bike in gear. Before you pressureize the > cylinder you need to > > ensure that putting air in the cylinder won't turn > the motor over, > > someone holding the rear brake on should do. > > Once you pressureize the cylinder if there is a > bad valve, broken > > ring, etc you'll hear the air leaking. Out the > exhaust pipe, exhaust > > valve, out the breather (filter removed) intake > valve, out the oil > > filler hole, cap removed, piston / rings. Since > you have been trying > > to start the bike for a while with no success I > would put a little > > oil I the sparkplug hole in case gas has washed > the oil from the > > cylinder wall I've heard of but never experienced > a cylinder washed > > down badly enough to prevent a motor from starting > so a long shot > > might be a little oil in the cylinder then try > starting again. > > One thing that you never mentioned was your plug, > if you put in a > > new dry plug is it wet after you try to start it, > if so it could > > point to a problem of no fire under compression > > Hope this helps some and good luck...Greg > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Ask a question on any topic and get answers from > real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.

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Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 2:23 pm**

Yup, and many thanks for the responses. Me and the A14 are in Diamond Bar CA 91765. I need to double check the cam timing using the arrows on the cam sprockets. In the last post I described the direction the cam lobes themselves were pointing, not the arrows on the cam sprockets, possibly leading people to believe one of the cams was 180 degrees out. I find that a little hard to believe since the bike was running then just acted like it ran out of gas. A tooth or three out is definitely a possibility but not 180 degrees. Is this an interference engine, ie, if the cams are out of time will the valves contact the top of the piston? When the bike is cranking over on the starter there are no nasty banging and clanging sounds... quote >endquote

Posted: **Tue May 01, 2007 7:09 pm**

Thanks to Greg May for sending me some scans of the Clymer manual. I've ordered one up so Clymer will get their money eventually. Actually they already did get their money because the seller had to pay for it. Figure 25 on pg. 87 of the Clymer manual shows the intake and exhaust cam lobes pointing 180 degrees away from each other parallel to the line created by the cam sprocket arrows as I attempted to describe in a previous post. So, I don't have a camshaft 180 degrees out. Possibly a tooth or three, but not 180 degrees. "Z" (revmaatin) said disabling the KACR was a no-brainer, just wire the weights into their extended position. I might try a small nylon cable tie, that would ease my mind about scratching up the inside of the head with metal wire. Thanks again for all the responses. Hopefully this mule will snort again soon without having to tear down the top end. Respectfully, Ian __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 1:13 am**

Norm said: Camshaft timing will, of course, be critical. Was the cam chain removed or not tensioned? Otherwise it is hard to imagine how cam timing could slip out of time. Thanks Norm. No, the camchain tensioner was not removed or loosened for the valve adjustment. I was able to get the shims out without removing the camshafts, just the caps, and lifting the cams up an inch or so then fishing the shims out with a small flat blade screwdriver to break the seal and lift it up far enough to get a grip with curved needle nose pliers. There were three 275 shims and one 270 installed. Had to use a 250 shim on the left exhaust valve to get .20mm of clearance. I think the clearances may have never been checked in 23k miles. From what I gather from my observations of the untouched fasteners on this engine, the story the seller told me, and the odo readings on the docs, it appears this bike may have been purchased new by someone in the San Diego area, ridden around Baja Mexico for 23k miles without much maintenance beyond oil changes and tires, somehow managing to crack the backbone without breaking the subframe bolts, then unloaded the bike on the kid who sold it to me, who was not able to get it running tight, did only 500 miles in 6 mos. and may have cracked the frame himself as he was an extra large young man. In my lust for a KLR I did not carefully examine the bike and thought I was getting a decent runner in need of a carb clean for a fairly cheap price of $1600. It now appears that I will have to completely go thru the bike from stem to stern, do the neglected maintenance and rejuvenate it before I can contemplate venturing very far off the beaten track with it. And I should probably add motorcycle coverage to my tow service! Once bitten, twice shy. My last two bikes, an '80 GS450 and a '91 VX800 have never left me stranded in 25k miles over the last two years. This A14 will get its chance to prove itself reliable! And I will learn the finer points of frame welding and top end rebuilding if needed... Thanks again for the comments and suggestions! Respectfully yours, Ian __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 8:45 am**

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Ian Francisco wrote:

> > SNIP

Possibly a tooth or three, but not 180 degrees.

> "Z" (revmaatin) said disabling the KACR was a > no-brainer, just wire the weights into their extended > position.

SNIP Respectfully,

> > Ian >

Hello Ian, Thanks for the attribution, but the KACR suggestion was not mine. "Z" is Zack M of WDC. What I did suggest was that you tell us where you live, and maybe someone would come and lend you a 2d set of eyes. As of yet, I don't believe you have invited anyone to your party. revmaaatin.

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 10:47 am**

OUCH! If you removed the cam caps and lifted the cams without removing the spring of the tensioner first the tensioner will ratchet tighter than it is supposed to be causing you to have to force the cams back in place and possible bendage or breakage of valve timing related components. You need to check the cam timing carefully and check for slop if something is bent or broken. Also the possibility of bent valves. Not trying to scare you - just the facts. It can be fixed. Make sure you know what you are doing before you cause more damage. Walt (was hoping you were just the victim of a bad battery) -------------- Original message from Ian Francisco : --------------

> Norm said: > > Camshaft timing will, of course, be critical. Was the > cam chain removed > or not tensioned? Otherwise it is hard to imagine how > cam timing could > slip out of time. > > Thanks Norm. No, the camchain tensioner was not > removed or loosened for the valve adjustment. I was > able to get the shims out without removing the > camshafts, just the caps, and lifting the cams up an > inch or so then fishing the shims out with a small > flat blade screwdriver to break the seal and lift it > up far enough to get a grip with curved needle nose > pliers. There were three 275 shims and one 270 > installed. Had to use a 250 shim on the left exhaust > valve to get .20mm of clearance. I think the > clearances may have never been checked in 23k miles. > From what I gather from my observations of the > untouched fasteners on this engine, the story the > seller told me, and the odo readings on the docs, it > appears this bike may have been purchased new by > someone in the San Diego area, ridden around Baja > Mexico for 23k miles without much maintenance beyond > oil changes and tires, somehow managing to crack the > backbone without breaking the subframe bolts, then > unloaded the bike on the kid who sold it to me, who > was not able to get it running tight, did only 500 > miles in 6 mos. and may have cracked the frame himself > as he was an extra large young man. In my lust for a > KLR I did not carefully examine the bike and thought I > was getting a decent runner in need of a carb clean > for a fairly cheap price of $1600. It now appears that > I will have to completely go thru the bike from stem > to stern, do the neglected maintenance and rejuvenate > it before I can contemplate venturing very far off the > beaten track with it. And I should probably add > motorcycle coverage to my tow service! Once bitten, > twice shy. My last two bikes, an '80 GS450 and a '91 > VX800 have never left me stranded in 25k miles over > the last two years. This A14 will get its chance to > prove itself reliable! And I will learn the finer > points of frame welding and top end rebuilding if > needed... > > Thanks again for the comments and suggestions! > > Respectfully yours, > > Ian >

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 10:59 am**

a14@... wrote:

> OUCH! If you removed the cam caps and lifted the cams without > removing the spring of the tensioner first the tensioner will > ratchet tighter than it is supposed to be causing you to have > to force the cams back in place and possible bendage or breakage > of valve timing related components. You need to check the cam > timing carefully and check for slop if something is bent or broken. > Also the possibility of bent valves. Not trying to scare you - just > the facts. It can be fixed. Make sure you know what you are doing > before you cause more damage. > > Walt (was hoping you were just the victim of a bad battery) >

Like I said to him before, redo the valve check being absolutely sure that it was done 100% right. Which of course I got a rant from him about, but it's obvious that there are numerous things that could have gone wrong when he did the check. So please just redo the valve check, and make sure that your timing is correct using the tdc mark and the cam arrows. Z

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 11:37 am**

Ian, I think you owe Zach a few beers. I know I do. Walt

> Like I said to him before, redo the valve check being absolutely sure > that it was done 100% right. Which of course I got a rant from him > about, but it's obvious that there are numerous things that could have > gone wrong when he did the check. > > So please just redo the valve check, and make sure that your timing is > correct using the tdc mark and the cam arrows. > > Z > >

Posted: **Wed May 02, 2007 7:36 pm**

I didn't have to force anything. I was able to be as gentle as a brain surgeon. The cams lifted up about an inch on the right side without forcing anything. I know I forgot to loosen the camchain tensioner but I seriously doubt I did any serious damage. I never used enough force to bend or break antyhing. But thanks for the warning. I've been letting the KLR sit for about two weeks to let the impatience and frustration of having a new (used) bike that doesn't run wear off before I did any more work on it. Plus the daily grind has been heavy, extracurricular activites are demanding free time, and when I do get time, I'd rather ride one of my other two bikes. But, I'll get this KLR back up and running. There's no way I can abuse it as much as it's been abused at the hands of the two DPO's. --- a14@... wrote:

> OUCH! If you removed the cam caps and lifted the > cams without > removing the spring of the tensioner first the > tensioner will > ratchet tighter than it is supposed to be causing > you to have > to force the cams back in place and possible bendage > or breakage > of valve timing related components. You need to > check the cam > timing carefully and check for slop if something is > bent or broken. > Also the possibility of bent valves. Not trying to > scare you - just > the facts. It can be fixed. Make sure you know > what you are doing > before you cause more damage. > > Walt (was hoping you were just the victim of a bad > battery) > > > -------------- Original message from Ian Francisco > : -------------- > > Norm said: > > > > Camshaft timing will, of course, be critical. Was > the > > cam chain removed > > or not tensioned? Otherwise it is hard to imagine > how > > cam timing could > > slip out of time. > > > > Thanks Norm. No, the camchain tensioner was not > > removed or loosened for the valve adjustment. I > was > > able to get the shims out without removing the > > camshafts, just the caps, and lifting the cams up > an > > inch or so then fishing the shims out with a small > > > flat blade screwdriver to break the seal and lift > it > > up far enough to get a grip with curved needle > nose > > pliers. There were three 275 shims and one 270 > > installed. Had to use a 250 shim on the left > exhaust > > valve to get .20mm of clearance. I think the > > clearances may have never been checked in 23k > miles. > > From what I gather from my observations of the > > untouched fasteners on this engine, the story the > > seller told me, and the odo readings on the docs, > it > > appears this bike may have been purchased new by > > someone in the San Diego area, ridden around Baja > > Mexico for 23k miles without much maintenance > beyond > > oil changes and tires, somehow managing to crack > the > > backbone without breaking the subframe bolts, then > > > unloaded the bike on the kid who sold it to me, > who > > was not able to get it running tight, did only 500 > > > miles in 6 mos. and may have cracked the frame > himself > > as he was an extra large young man. In my lust for > a > > KLR I did not carefully examine the bike and > thought I > > was getting a decent runner in need of a carb > clean > > for a fairly cheap price of $1600. It now appears > that > > I will have to completely go thru the bike from > stem > > to stern, do the neglected maintenance and > rejuvenate > > it before I can contemplate venturing very far off > the > > beaten track with it. And I should probably add > > motorcycle coverage to my tow service! Once > bitten, > > twice shy. My last two bikes, an '80 GS450 and a > '91 > > VX800 have never left me stranded in 25k miles > over > > the last two years. This A14 will get its chance > to > > prove itself reliable! And I will learn the finer > > points of frame welding and top end rebuilding if > > needed... > > > > Thanks again for the comments and suggestions! > > > > Respectfully yours, > > > > Ian > > >

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Wilsons Sandbox

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