Wilsons Sandbox

Hello, I am just ready to install the torsion spring and Doohickey. I have asked Jeff Saline and he kindly responded with an analytical article, saying that from the two holes made in either side of the axis, I should use the left so the spring will have a 120 degrees preload. In his Doohickey article Elden Carl says that too much preload is harmfull. So my question is what is the use of the right hole (less preload) if I should only use maximum preload attaching the torsion spring on the left hole. Thanks for any advice. Georgios Athens Greece _________________________________________________________________ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

Georgios, This is top posted and on and off list. The off list part is the pictures I'm sending you. Everyone on list can read the written part below. The two holes are so you have a choice when figuring out your preload. If you know which one you'll need to get about 115 degrees of preload then only drill one. Attached are three pictures you may find helpful. One shows the spring with about 70 degrees of preload which Bill Watson suggests isn't enough. Another shows the spring with about 115 degrees of preload and that's about right. Using the correct hole will get you close to the correct amount of preload. John Biccum has these pictures on a website. John, can you give directions on where the rest of the list can view the pictures? Please take a good look at the difference in the angle of the end of the spring in the two pictures showing preload angles. The 70 degree picture shows the spring as it comes from Mike. The 115 degree picture shows how you might bend it for the best fit on the doohickey. I just use pliers and pad the jaws and bend it while it's in place. The third picture shows where you may have to remove some metal from the large starter gear webs to clear the spring and or doohickey. Before you reinstall the rotor, spin the large starter gear and listen for contact with the spring or doohickey. I've had gears with no contact to gears that contact on one, two or three webs. Bill and I have discussed the tolerances of this gear and since it doesn't turn fast or often, close tolerances aren't needed when it's made. The closer the tolerance the more costly the part. Removing a bit of metal from this part shouldn't hurt it in any way. Remember, this gear only turns when the starter is engaged. Hope this is helpful. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 18:04:15 +0300 "Georgios Georgios" writes:

> Hello, > > I am just ready to install the torsion spring and Doohickey. I have > asked > Jeff Saline and he kindly responded with an analytical article, > saying that > from the two holes made in either side of the axis, I should use the > left so > the spring will have a 120 degrees preload. In his Doohickey article > Elden > Carl says that too much preload is harmfull. So my question is what > is the > use of the right hole (less preload) if I should only use maximum > preload > attaching the torsion spring on the left hole. > Thanks for any advice. > > Georgios > Athens > Greece > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's > FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Georgios Georgios" wrote:

> > Hello, > > I am just ready to install the torsion spring and Doohickey. I have

asked

> Jeff Saline and he kindly responded with an analytical article,

saying that

> from the two holes made in either side of the axis, I should use the

left so

> the spring will have a 120 degrees preload. In his Doohickey article

Elden

> Carl says that too much preload is harmfull. So my question is what

is the

> use of the right hole (less preload) if I should only use maximum

preload

> attaching the torsion spring on the left hole. > Thanks for any advice. > > Georgios > Athens > Greece

Georgois, I'm only the guy that designed that spring, so I don't know anything. (grin here)I show 1 hole in the article describing how to install the spring on www.leftcoastklrs.com, in the articles section. The hole location is subjective, based on how much wear there is on your balancer system. Put your lever on the shaft, and rotate it as though tightening the chain, clockwise. See where the lever stops, you don't need to use a lot of pressure. Compare that location to the location of the lever in the picture. I don't know where Jeff put a second hole. I did calculate the spring preload required when the spring was developed. Bill Watson had a prototype model in testing for quite a while, and still has it in his bike last time we talked about it. His version had more preload, but the other end of the spring was not anchored to the case. One end of the spring (prototype)was left longer and straight, and pressed against the case below the lever/doo. I decided to change that for 2 reasons. The location of that end cannot be changed to re-tension the system if the spring for some reason doesn't have enough tension in the future. Also the end of the spring slides across the bottom of the area below the lever as the other end is installed on the lever. Unless the installer is aware of it, this can give a false impression of how much preload there actually is. The torsion spring has a much larger effective travel of lever adjustment than the factory type extension spring, in either case. Hope this helps, and all the best, Mike

A lot of faith is being placed in aftermarket springs to duplicate the factory slack/tension spec. in the balancer chain. Sure would like to see 'objective evidence' that it does (or why it is different). Fred --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Georgios Georgios" wrote:

> > Hello, > > I am just ready to install the torsion spring and Doohickey. I have

asked

> Jeff Saline and he kindly responded with an analytical article,

saying that

> from the two holes made in either side of the axis, I should use the

left so

> the spring will have a 120 degrees preload. In his Doohickey article

Elden

> Carl says that too much preload is harmfull. So my question is what

is the

> use of the right hole (less preload) if I should only use maximum

preload

> attaching the torsion spring on the left hole. > Thanks for any advice. > > Georgios > Athens > Greece > > _________________________________________________________________ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's

FREE!

> http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ >

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "kestrelfal" wrote:

> > A lot of faith is being placed in > aftermarket springs to duplicate the > factory slack/tension spec. in the > balancer chain. Sure would like to > see 'objective evidence' that it does > (or why it is different). > > Fred

Fred, Are you familiar with torsion springs? The stress is placed into the spring differently than the factory type extension springs. I did calculate the inch-lbs of tension placed on the system on a new bike. I've seen a number of bikes with as little as 5 miles on them when the balancer lever was replaced with one of mine. I was able to measure the extension of the factory spring. There are formulae (sp?) and software (yeah!) that make calculating tension pretty easy. The springs included in the standard kit and the torsion spring are all designed to maintain tension within the same envelope as the factory system - when installed per my instructions. And yes, I did allow for a safety factor. Wire diameter, spring body diameter, number of coils and initial load were all taken into account. No, I'm not going to share these calculations with everyone. (grin here) The nay sayer mentioned (in an above post) made noises a couple of months (or so) ago about "designing" a lever kit. I'm not going to help. BTW, I've seen situations like this (the article referenced above) before where some person jumps to a conclusion and then makes up the supporting data to support the conclusion, ignoring or not looking for evidence that might support anything else. Of course they could also not be aware of the other evidence, too. Most KLR650 owners are pretty bright, in my experience. My suggestion is always to educate yourself as much as possible. Then make a decision based on what you know and your experience. all the best, Mike Eagle Mfg since 1990 Beware those that don't admit mistakes! I've made my share!

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "kestrelfal" wrote:

> > A lot of faith is being placed in > aftermarket springs to duplicate the > factory slack/tension spec. in the > balancer chain. Sure would like to > see 'objective evidence' that it does > (or why it is different). > > Fred

Fred, a less complicated example of objective evidence is that many of the stock springs break and so apply no force to the lever. Mike's tension springs don't break and so they do apply tension. The same is true of his torsion springs although the means by which the force is applied is somewhat different. What I'm saying here is that one should not lose sight of the fact that the reason for replacing the original spring is that it does not provide tensioning effect as the designers intended. Any spring which does allow the tensioner to function in a manner even close to the intended effect has to be a huge improvement. Just my views, Norm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Here is a link to Jeff's photos: http://johnbiccum.smugmug.com/gallery/2938841#158603165 -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Saline [mailto:salinej1@...] Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2007 08:44 To: g_assos@... Cc: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com; johnbiccum@... Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] torsion spring preload Georgios, This is top posted and on and off list. The off list part is the pictures I'm sending you. Everyone on list can read the written part below. The two holes are so you have a choice when figuring out your preload. If you know which one you'll need to get about 115 degrees of preload then only drill one. Attached are three pictures you may find helpful. One shows the spring with about 70 degrees of preload which Bill Watson suggests isn't enough. Another shows the spring with about 115 degrees of preload and that's about right. Using the correct hole will get you close to the correct amount of preload. John Biccum has these pictures on a website. John, can you give directions on where the rest of the list can view the pictures? Please take a good look at the difference in the angle of the end of the spring in the two pictures showing preload angles. The 70 degree picture shows the spring as it comes from Mike. The 115 degree picture shows how you might bend it for the best fit on the doohickey. I just use pliers and pad the jaws and bend it while it's in place. The third picture shows where you may have to remove some metal from the large starter gear webs to clear the spring and or doohickey. Before you reinstall the rotor, spin the large starter gear and listen for contact with the spring or doohickey. I've had gears with no contact to gears that contact on one, two or three webs. Bill and I have discussed the tolerances of this gear and since it doesn't turn fast or often, close tolerances aren't needed when it's made. The closer the tolerance the more costly the part. Removing a bit of metal from this part shouldn't hurt it in any way. Remember, this gear only turns when the starter is engaged. Hope this is helpful. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

On Thu, 14 Jun 2007 23:35:28 -0700 "John Biccum" writes:

> Here is a link to Jeff's photos: > http://johnbiccum.smugmug.com/gallery/2938841#158603165

<><><><><><> <><><><><><> John, Thanks for letting everyone know where to see those pictures and also for hosting them. Just so folks don't think I did all that... Bill Watson took the picture of the starter gear with the web grinding. He also did the writing on the other two pictures showing preload angles. Note the picture showing the 115 degree preload shows the spring AFTER it was bent. The picture showing the 70 degrees of preload shows the spring end BEFORE it was bent. I like to drill two holes in the inner cover when I have it on the drill press. The second hole takes an extra 15 seconds and saves me a bit of time versus having to re remove the cover to drill a second hole. So far all the bikes I've done used "Hole B", the hole on the left. Hole A just didn't have enough preload. I also take a 1/8" drill bit in my fingers and spin it on the end of each hole, both sides, to put a slight chamfer on the edge of the hole. I've also found touching the end of the spring with a file removes a "lip" created when the spring wire was cut. Then it slips in the hole a bit easier. Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

Has anyone had a problem with the improved dohickys or springs failing? Craig Kahler Norm Keller wrote:

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "kestrelfal" wrote: > > A lot of faith is being placed in > aftermarket springs to duplicate the > factory slack/tension spec. in the > balancer chain. Sure would like to > see 'objective evidence' that it does > (or why it is different). > > Fred Fred, a less complicated example of objective evidence is that many of the stock springs break and so apply no force to the lever. Mike's tension springs don't break and so they do apply tension. The same is true of his torsion springs although the means by which the force is applied is somewhat different. What I'm saying here is that one should not lose sight of the fact that the reason for replacing the original spring is that it does not provide tensioning effect as the designers intended. Any spring which does allow the tensioner to function in a manner even close to the intended effect has to be a huge improvement. Just my views, Norm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] --------------------------------- Don't be flakey. Get Yahoo! Mail for Mobile and always stay connected to friends. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Craig Kahler wrote:

> > Has anyone had a problem with the improved dohickys or springs failing? > > Craig Kahler

AFAIK, there have been no reports of aftermarket quadrants failing, whether from Mike Cowlishaw or Dave Jakeman. There were a few failures of some early aftermarket springs, but none that I know of with Mike's current springs.