Wilsons Sandbox

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:00 pm**

I just have one last point to make on this issue that I apparently don't understand for some twisted reason: Why is it that a group of people often so concerned about safety, who might wear reflective vests, employ strobing headlights, take MSF courses, and advocate wearing proper gear for riding, can't see the loudness of an exhaust as an additional safety item? Please forget about the semantics of right or wrong, annoying or not, and just answer me by what logic is additional noise not an added benefit to safety while riding? Forget about citing studies that did not show it made a difference and use your brain before responding. Flames or emotional arguments will be ignored. - Kip Eugene, OR

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:05 pm**

Sure must be a huge disappointment to to folks who use sirens that loud noises don't help them get noticed......

-d

On 8/9/05, Kip C. Anderson wrote: > I just have one last point to make on this issue that I apparently don't > understand for some twisted reason: Why is it that a group of people often > so concerned about safety, who might wear reflective vests, employ strobing > headlights, take MSF courses, and advocate wearing proper gear for riding, > can't see the loudness of an exhaust as an additional safety item? > > Please forget about the semantics of right or wrong, annoying or not, and > just answer me by what logic is additional noise not an added benefit to > safety while riding? > > Forget about citing studies that did not show it made a difference and use > your brain before responding. Flames or emotional arguments will be > ignored. > > - > Kip > Eugene, OR > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > -- --My greatest fear in life is not death, but waking up one morning ordinary and predictable.

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:15 pm**

I can't hear anymore. Criswell

On Tuesday, August 9, 2005, at 04:01 PM, Kip C. Anderson wrote: > I just have one last point to make on this issue that I apparently > don't > understand for some twisted reason: Why is it that a group of people > often > so concerned about safety, who might wear reflective vests, employ > strobing > headlights, take MSF courses, and advocate wearing proper gear for > riding, > can't see the loudness of an exhaust as an additional safety item? > > Please forget about the semantics of right or wrong, annoying or not, > and > just answer me by what logic is additional noise not an added benefit > to > safety while riding? > > Forget about citing studies that did not show it made a difference and > use > your brain before responding. Flames or emotional arguments will be > ignored. > > - > Kip > Eugene, OR > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > >

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:17 pm**

Kip .. it is a great point .. the exhaust noise will let others know you are around them. The problem is the sound carries and echoes, especially in traffic. The sound does not pinpoint your exact location. Counting on the sound to locate you in traffic is not always .. a ... sound .. decision. PauL M. Bober A9 MFS#23201 -----Original Message----- From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Kip C. Anderson Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:01 PM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Louder exhaust logic (NKLR) I just have one last point to make on this issue that I apparently don't understand for some twisted reason: Why is it that a group of people often so concerned about safety, who might wear reflective vests, employ strobing headlights, take MSF courses, and advocate wearing proper gear for riding, can't see the loudness of an exhaust as an additional safety item? Please forget about the semantics of right or wrong, annoying or not, and just answer me by what logic is additional noise not an added benefit to safety while riding? Forget about citing studies that did not show it made a difference and use your brain before responding. Flames or emotional arguments will be ignored. - Kip Eugene, OR Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:30 pm**

Also, sirens are typically at a frequency which is more directional. Loud exhausts tend to be at a lower frequency range - outside the range that's directional for humans. (geeky digression on that below). Also, I think that this is kind of red herring - sirens are often accompanied by all sorts of other attention getting devices - flashing lights, high visability paints, etc. There's also the legal/cultural matters associated with sirens - people in general know that if they hear one, it really is in their best interest to pay attention. Perhaps if onlyl to know it's not someone pulling them over... Loud pipes - not so much. Basically, for much of the range of frequencies you can perceive (the "ideal" range is usually given as 20Hz - 20 kHz, though most people can't actually get anything up around 20 K), it's physically impossible to tell which direction it's coming from. (As an aside - you can sometimes DEDUCE the direction by the relative vibration of objects around you. But with your ears alone, it's not happening) I don't remember the exact physical reasons for all cases, but at low frequencies the wavelength is just too long for the amplitude at one ear to be different than the amplitude at the other ear. I think at high frequencies it has to do with wavelength vs the size of ear components. (I'm only discussing the aspect of exhaust vs siren in the larger Loud Pipes aren - I have no interest in being drawn into the larger discussion. So please don't extrapolate anything about my opinion on the subject from this post. Well, go ahead... just keep it to yourself

) erik

> Kip .. it is a great point .. the exhaust noise will let others know you are > around them. The problem is the sound carries and echoes, especially in > traffic. The sound does not pinpoint your exact location. Counting on the > sound to locate you in traffic is not always .. a ... sound .. decision. > > Behalf Of Kip C. Anderson > Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:01 PM > Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Louder exhaust logic (NKLR) > > I just have one last point to make on this issue that I apparently don't > understand for some twisted reason: Why is it that a group of people often > so concerned about safety, who might wear reflective vests, employ strobing > headlights, take MSF courses, and advocate wearing proper gear for riding, > can't see the loudness of an exhaust as an additional safety item?

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:09 pm**

Maybe because all the cagers out there that are sick and tired of listening to loud pipes, will hear you coming and take that moment to get even. The they could just tell the cop they didn't see you.

"Kip C. Anderson" wrote:I just have one last point to make on this issue that I apparently don't understand for some twisted reason: Why is it that a group of people often so concerned about safety, who might wear reflective vests, employ strobing headlights, take MSF courses, and advocate wearing proper gear for riding, can't see the loudness of an exhaust as an additional safety item? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 8:19 pm**

Applying logic, I can hear a harley going much better then coming. So, what if the pipes faced forward? Sound backwards, but the sound would actually be forward, towards where you are riding to rather then from. Don't think it would affect performance if the pipes exited sideways. Zac -----Original Message----- From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Rick McCauley Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:09 PM To: dsn_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Louder exhaust logic (NKLR) Maybe because all the cagers out there that are sick and tired of listening to loud pipes, will hear you coming and take that moment to get even. The they could just tell the cop they didn't see you.

"Kip C. Anderson" wrote:I just have one last point to make on this issue that I apparently don't understand for some twisted reason: Why is it that a group of people often so concerned about safety, who might wear reflective vests, employ strobing headlights, take MSF courses, and advocate wearing proper gear for riding, can't see the loudness of an exhaust as an additional safety item? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:47 pm**

I think these are good points, however the directional issue is not so applicable to more rural situations where there are fewer other vehicles around and only one of two directions from which the sound could be coming in the case of a two lane highway. - Kip

----- Original Message ----- From: "erik" To: Cc: "Kip C. Anderson" ; DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 4:31 PM Subject: RE: [DSN_KLR650] Louder exhaust logic (NKLR) > > Also, sirens are typically at a frequency which is more directional. Loud > exhausts tend to be at a lower frequency range - outside the range that's > directional for humans. (geeky digression on that below). > > Also, I think that this is kind of red herring - sirens are often > accompanied by all sorts of other attention getting devices - flashing > lights, high visability paints, etc. There's also the legal/cultural > matters associated with sirens - people in general know that if they hear > one, it really is in their best interest to pay attention. Perhaps if > onlyl to know it's not someone pulling them over... Loud pipes - not so > much. > > Basically, for much of the range of frequencies you can perceive (the > "ideal" range is usually given as 20Hz - 20 kHz, though most people can't > actually get anything up around 20 K), it's physically impossible to tell > which direction it's coming from. (As an aside - you can sometimes DEDUCE > the direction by the relative vibration of objects around you. But with > your ears alone, it's not happening) > > I don't remember the exact physical reasons for all cases, but at low > frequencies the wavelength is just too long for the amplitude at one ear > to be different than the amplitude at the other ear. I think at high > frequencies it has to do with wavelength vs the size of ear components. > > (I'm only discussing the aspect of exhaust vs siren in the larger Loud > Pipes aren - I have no interest in being drawn into the larger discussion. > So please don't extrapolate anything about my opinion on the subject from > this post. Well, go ahead... just keep it to yourself ) > > erik

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 10:49 pm**

At this point I must confess that I am just stirring the pot while making a feeble attempt at showing that just because an incomplete study doesn't confirm what logic tells us should be true, it doesn't mean that it is not! Here's my latest anecdotal evidence to support that logic: While on a ride two days ago cruising down a paved rural road at about 55mph following another vehicle about 100 yds back, I came upon 4 teenage boys riding bicycles erratically in the same direction along the shoulder and occassionally crossing the road ahead. Naturally, I slowed down in anticipation that they may not be aware of my approach. With the stock exhaust and me now travelling at a mere 25 mph, they finally noticed the sound of my bike only 50 feet or so away, allowing me to pass safely. Obviously, honking the horn probably would have gotten their attention sooner, but in the meth addicted backwoods, I consider the horn a last resort. While in reality little was lost in this incident aside from some cruising speed, the reality could have been different. A louder exhaust would probably have allowed a great margin for recognition and response, perhaps allowing me only the slightest of speed correction to pass safely. Likewise, an exhaust quieter than the stock can probably would have reduced that margin even further, making the use of the horn all but imperative. Frankly, I don't want a LOUD exhaust, but merely one that is mellow but not all but unnoticeable like the stock exhaust can be. - Kip Eugene, OR

----- Original Message ----- From: "Rick McCauley" To: dsn_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2005 6:09 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Louder exhaust logic (NKLR) > Maybe because all the cagers out there that are sick and tired of > listening to loud pipes, will hear you coming and take that moment to get > even. The they could just tell the cop they didn't see you. > > "Kip C. Anderson" wrote:I just have one last point > to make on this issue that I apparently don't > understand for some twisted reason: Why is it that a group of people often > so concerned about safety, who might wear reflective vests, employ > strobing > headlights, take MSF courses, and advocate wearing proper gear for riding, > can't see the loudness of an exhaust as an additional safety item?

Posted: **Tue Aug 09, 2005 11:01 pm**

> Please forget about the semantics of right or wrong, annoying or

not, and

> just answer me by what logic is additional noise not an added

benefit to

> safety while riding?

OK here is the logic, the overwhelming majority of threats come from the front, with the pipe opening pointing to the rear that is where the noise is, the people that need to hear you simply can't. Personal experience bears this out, I've ridden about 20000 miles with my neighbor who runs straight pipes on a v-twin, when in front of him while on my BMW with stock pipes I couldn't hear him. Sitting in a car at speed with the radio going - no way. YMMV Steve

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