Wilsons Sandbox

I can't believe I'm jumping into this. Not that I think it's wrong from some moral high ground, but I'm just too damn busy at work!

> From: "Giorgio Trucco" > Subject: RE: Re: NKLR CA gun laws /WHY CARRY??? > > None of the numerous gun carriers here pursuant to their right to > selfdefense concerned about defending themselves from the lack of > freedom of speech at work, were people live in terror of being fired, > due to the absence of a fair labor legislation?

A business is a private enterprise, there is no freedom of speech there. And what entitles a person to job security? I have a PhD from one of the highest-rated colleges in the US, I've built entire lab facilities by myself, and yet I was slated for "separation" (college speak for layoffs) because of a lack of business in the wind tunnel. It happens. Fortunately, because I do work hard and have a variety of skills, a professor found a position for me on a new research contract. If that didn't come through, I'd be looking for a job like anyone else. But if you're worth keeping, and they can find a way, they'll keep you.

> None concerned about their wifes job security and length of the > maternity leave while pregnant?

My view (which I probably shouldn't post) is that there is no "right" to children, and if you can't afford them, you shouldn't have them. (Of course, there can always be unforseen circumstances later on that put people in dire financial straights, and that's a different story.) And I've heard about how good socialized health care is in some "first-world" countries. Our system may not be the best, but it does have an upside. The biggest problem is the volume of lawsuits brought up by people who just can't accept that sometimes, shit happens. The amount of malpractice insurance that is required pushes a doctor's costs through the roof, and drives some to quit outright.

> From: "Conall" > Subject: Re: NKLR Why libs shouldn't vote for Kerry >

(in response to CA Stu's post)

> > Wow, instead of making $20 a hr. Wal-mart has pushed the wages down > to $6-$10/hr. (...blah blah blah) Forcing their suppliers to offshore > all manufacturing or lose the right to do business with them. Do you > offer a decent wage to your employees Stu, with benefits or is your > business also being affected from the WalMart effect? Maybe advertise > HELP WANTED, LIVE The Mexican Dream!

This is pretty funny coming from a guy who sold his KLR650.com domain to a company that sells cheap knock-offs of KLR parts originally made by small American businesses. Wal-Mart's success is also driven by the fact that people want the cheapest stuff they can buy. And what's wrong with entry-level jobs? What entitles a register clerk to huge benefits? Heck, why don't we just raise the minimum wage to $100/hr, so we can all live in style! Woo hoo! Krokko

Hey Chris, Thanks for the "voice of reason". I just hope that the majority of those who choose to vote on Tuesday will put as much thought into the "way things are" as you have. AZt least from the high ground you can easily pick them suckers off. Keep low and they can't return effective fire. Buddy Harry Seifert bseifert71@...

> [Original Message] > From: Chris Krok > To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> > Date: 10/28/2004 12:36:09 PM > Subject: [DSN_klr650] NKLR free speech > > > I can't believe I'm jumping into this. Not that I think it's wrong from > some moral high ground, but I'm just too damn busy at work! > > > From: "Giorgio Trucco" > > Subject: RE: Re: NKLR CA gun laws /WHY CARRY??? > > > > None of the numerous gun carriers here pursuant to their right to > > selfdefense concerned about defending themselves from the lack of > > freedom of speech at work, were people live in terror of being fired, > > due to the absence of a fair labor legislation? > > A business is a private enterprise, there is no freedom of speech > there. And what entitles a person to job security? I have a PhD from > one of the highest-rated colleges in the US, I've built entire lab > facilities by myself, and yet I was slated for "separation" (college > speak for layoffs) because of a lack of business in the wind tunnel. It > happens. Fortunately, because I do work hard and have a variety of > skills, a professor found a position for me on a new research contract. > If that didn't come through, I'd be looking for a job like anyone else. > But if you're worth keeping, and they can find a way, they'll keep you. > > > None concerned about their wifes job security and length of the > > maternity leave while pregnant? > > My view (which I probably shouldn't post) is that there is no "right" to > children, and if you can't afford them, you shouldn't have them. (Of > course, there can always be unforseen circumstances later on that put > people in dire financial straights, and that's a different story.) > > And I've heard about how good socialized health care is in some > "first-world" countries. Our system may not be the best, but it does > have an upside. The biggest problem is the volume of lawsuits brought > up by people who just can't accept that sometimes, shit happens. The > amount of malpractice insurance that is required pushes a doctor's costs > through the roof, and drives some to quit outright. > > > From: "Conall" > > Subject: Re: NKLR Why libs shouldn't vote for Kerry > > > (in response to CA Stu's post) > > > > Wow, instead of making $20 a hr. Wal-mart has pushed the wages down > > to $6-$10/hr. (...blah blah blah) Forcing their suppliers to offshore > > all manufacturing or lose the right to do business with them. Do you > > offer a decent wage to your employees Stu, with benefits or is your > > business also being affected from the WalMart effect? Maybe advertise > > HELP WANTED, LIVE The Mexican Dream! > > This is pretty funny coming from a guy who sold his KLR650.com domain to > a company that sells cheap knock-offs of KLR parts originally made by > small American businesses. Wal-Mart's success is also driven by the > fact that people want the cheapest stuff they can buy. And what's wrong > with entry-level jobs? What entitles a register clerk to huge > benefits? Heck, why don't we just raise the minimum wage to $100/hr, so > we can all live in style! Woo hoo! > > Krokko > -- > Dr. J. Christopher Krok > John Lucas Adaptive Wind Tunnel > Caltech MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125 > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ

courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html

> Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

I'm all for free speech, and I am proud to live in a country where every individual has the RIGHT to express themselve, no matter how misguided and stupid the Kerry supporters' rants are*

> > Subject: Re: NKLR Why libs shouldn't vote for Kerry > > > (in response to CA Stu's post) > > > > Wow, instead of making $20 a hr. Wal-mart has pushed the wages down > > to $6-$10/hr. (...blah blah blah) Forcing their suppliers to offshore > > all manufacturing or lose the right to do business with them. Do

you

> > offer a decent wage to your employees Stu, with benefits or is your > > business also being affected from the WalMart effect? Maybe advertise > > HELP WANTED, LIVE The Mexican Dream! > > This is pretty funny coming from a guy who sold his KLR650.com domain to > a company that sells cheap knock-offs of KLR parts originally made by > small American businesses. Wal-Mart's success is also driven by the > fact that people want the cheapest stuff they can buy. And what's wrong > with entry-level jobs? What entitles a register clerk to huge > benefits? Heck, why don't we just raise the minimum wage to $100/hr, so > we can all live in style! Woo hoo! > > Krokko

Just to respond to Conall's original query, all my salesmen are independent. Work their own marketing program, at their own pace. I have some that make six figures, and some that make a lot less. I don't write their checks, I just sign them. They make as much or as little as they want to, the American Dream if ever there was one. Krokko, your brainpower is showing. Cheers CA Stu PS Blame Canada

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "CA Stu" wrote:

> > I'm all for free speech, and I am proud to live in a country where > every individual has the RIGHT to express themselve, no matter how > misguided and stupid the Kerry supporters' rants are* >

* Humor

It's interesting to note that things that in Europe are considered "human rights", in the US are considered things that you can afford, or not. And there is no discussion that can convince each part of the resons of the other part. It all has to do with what kind of education you received when you were a kid, what you've been taught at school, how did you see your father live and work. What strikes me is that most (or at least many) Americans who strongly defend the "way things are", have never really come to know other systems. And it's not hard to understand why. With 15 days of PTO a year (because you have no rights in a private enterprise, right?), it's hard to spend 5 weeks in Finland, or France, or Switzerland, or Holland and still have a job when you come back. So most of them will just afford a trip to Vegas, or Hawaii, where they won't find anything with the potential to challenge their believes. Last year I run into a bank teller that asked me what country my "Euros" were from... A bank teller!! Hello???? At a UPS store the guy couldn't find London-England in the system, so I told him: "Try London-Great Britain". He asked me: "London is in Great Britain?" What future can have a society that doesn't value (and protect from private enterprises) the time that a mother spend with her newborn? Every day I see pregnant coworkers showing up at work exhausted, with gigantic bellies, up to 2 or 3 days before the delivery, dragging their feet around tired to death, just because they are scared of being laid-off. You might think this is the only and the best possible way for things to be. Believe me, it is not and the "voice of reason" can be a very different one, depending on who you talk to. Giorgio -----Original Message----- From: Chris Krok [mailto:stingray@...] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 12:34 PM To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_klr650] NKLR free speech I can't believe I'm jumping into this. Not that I think it's wrong from some moral high ground, but I'm just too damn busy at work!

> From: "Giorgio Trucco" > Subject: RE: Re: NKLR CA gun laws /WHY CARRY??? > > None of the numerous gun carriers here pursuant to their right to > selfdefense concerned about defending themselves from the lack of > freedom of speech at work, were people live in terror of being fired, > due to the absence of a fair labor legislation?

A business is a private enterprise, there is no freedom of speech there. And what entitles a person to job security? I have a PhD from one of the highest-rated colleges in the US, I've built entire lab facilities by myself, and yet I was slated for "separation" (college speak for layoffs) because of a lack of business in the wind tunnel. It happens. Fortunately, because I do work hard and have a variety of skills, a professor found a position for me on a new research contract. If that didn't come through, I'd be looking for a job like anyone else. But if you're worth keeping, and they can find a way, they'll keep you.

> None concerned about their wifes job security and length of the > maternity leave while pregnant?

My view (which I probably shouldn't post) is that there is no "right" to children, and if you can't afford them, you shouldn't have them. (Of course, there can always be unforseen circumstances later on that put people in dire financial straights, and that's a different story.) And I've heard about how good socialized health care is in some "first-world" countries. Our system may not be the best, but it does have an upside. The biggest problem is the volume of lawsuits brought up by people who just can't accept that sometimes, shit happens. The amount of malpractice insurance that is required pushes a doctor's costs through the roof, and drives some to quit outright.

> From: "Conall" > Subject: Re: NKLR Why libs shouldn't vote for Kerry >

(in response to CA Stu's post)

> > Wow, instead of making $20 a hr. Wal-mart has pushed the wages down to > $6-$10/hr. (...blah blah blah) Forcing their suppliers to offshore all > manufacturing or lose the right to do business with them. Do you > offer a decent wage to your employees Stu, with benefits or is your > business also being affected from the WalMart effect? Maybe advertise > HELP WANTED, LIVE The Mexican Dream!

This is pretty funny coming from a guy who sold his KLR650.com domain to a company that sells cheap knock-offs of KLR parts originally made by small American businesses. Wal-Mart's success is also driven by the fact that people want the cheapest stuff they can buy. And what's wrong with entry-level jobs? What entitles a register clerk to huge benefits? Heck, why don't we just raise the minimum wage to $100/hr, so we can all live in style! Woo hoo! Krokko www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . Yahoo! Groups Links

Giorgio, refresh my memory, where do you live presently? Thanks CA Stu Riverside CA

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Giorgio Trucco" wrote: > It's interesting to note that things that in Europe are considered > "human rights", in the US are considered things that you can afford, or > not. > And there is no discussion that can convince each part of the resons of > the other part. It all has to do with what kind of education you > received when you were a kid, what you've been taught at school, how did > you see your father live and work. > What strikes me is that most (or at least many) Americans who strongly > defend the "way things are", have never really come to know other > systems. > And it's not hard to understand why. > With 15 days of PTO a year (because you have no rights in a private > enterprise, right?), it's hard to spend 5 weeks in Finland, or France, > or Switzerland, or Holland and still have a job when you come back. > So most of them will just afford a trip to Vegas, or Hawaii, where they > won't find anything with the potential to challenge their believes. > > Last year I run into a bank teller that asked me what country my "Euros" > were from... > A bank teller!! Hello???? > At a UPS store the guy couldn't find London-England in the system, so I > told him: "Try London-Great Britain". He asked me: "London is in Great > Britain?" > > What future can have a society that doesn't value (and protect from > private enterprises) the time that a mother spend with her newborn? > Every day I see pregnant coworkers showing up at work exhausted, with > gigantic bellies, up to 2 or 3 days before the delivery, dragging their > feet around tired to death, just because they are scared of being > laid-off. > You might think this is the only and the best possible way for things to > be. > Believe me, it is not and the "voice of reason" can be a very different > one, depending on who you talk to. > > Giorgio >

CA Stu, come on... This is the usual stupid question I always get at some point. I'm always ready for it, and I normally let it pass... If we loose the pleasure to exchange ideas, defend them most of the times, and change them a very few times, then we are really lost! Come on, ask me something else, it's really beyond the point, on another planet I would say. Giorgio -----Original Message----- From: CA Stu [mailto:s2mumford@...] Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 1:45 PM To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: NKLR free speech Giorgio, refresh my memory, where do you live presently? Thanks CA Stu Riverside CA --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Giorgio Trucco" wrote:

> It's interesting to note that things that in Europe are considered > "human rights", in the US are considered things that you can afford, > or not. > And there is no discussion that can convince each part of the resons > of the other part. It all has to do with what kind of education you > received when you were a kid, what you've been taught at school, how > did you see your father live and work. > What strikes me is that most (or at least many) Americans who strongly > defend the "way things are", have never really come to know other > systems. > And it's not hard to understand why. > With 15 days of PTO a year (because you have no rights in a private > enterprise, right?), it's hard to spend 5 weeks in Finland, or France, > or Switzerland, or Holland and still have a job when you come back. > So most of them will just afford a trip to Vegas, or Hawaii, where > they won't find anything with the potential to challenge their

believes.

> > Last year I run into a bank teller that asked me what country my

"Euros"

> were from... > A bank teller!! Hello???? > At a UPS store the guy couldn't find London-England in the system, so > I told him: "Try London-Great Britain". He asked me: "London is in > Great Britain?" > > What future can have a society that doesn't value (and protect from > private enterprises) the time that a mother spend with her newborn? > Every day I see pregnant coworkers showing up at work exhausted, with > gigantic bellies, up to 2 or 3 days before the delivery, dragging > their feet around tired to death, just because they are scared of > being laid-off. > You might think this is the only and the best possible way for things > to be. > Believe me, it is not and the "voice of reason" can be a very > different one, depending on who you talk to. > > Giorgio >

List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . Yahoo! Groups Links

Why is the question stupid? That's like a politician saying I have a better plan for X and then not sharing the details. Not that anyone would do that. "Giorgio Trucco" > To