Wilsons Sandbox

At 11:39 AM -0800 12/10/03, Doug E wrote:

>Pactice hard braking and, > >Practice COUNTER STEERING.

Ya know, I could never get this one. Counter steering is an intuitive thing. It's kinda like saying, "practice breathing". Mark

I read this again and do not see you prompting which way the bike will turn with that left yank/right push. Is that wise? If there is still someone out there who does not understand counter-steering, could we be sending them out to do an experiment where the unexpected will happen? I'd rather say that it will be a right turn and then, although skeptical, at least they are looking for it. Now, a puzzle for the rest of us. Does counter steering apply at 5mph? 10? 15? If not, what is the difference? Looking for some physics explained. -Jim in AZ

----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug E" To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Cc: "Stan" Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 12:39 PM Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: Using both brakes ...> Practice COUNTER STEERING. > > Many riders (including those with lots of experience) > don't know which way their bike will turn if they yank > hard on the left side of the bars. > If you yank on the left, and push on the right, you > will turn incredibly fast. (Make sure you have room on > BOTH sides in case you're not positive which way > you're going to go!) This should be practiced often. > Both directions. Practice at all speeds over 35. > (Check behind you first!) > > I hope this encourages somebody to test their limits, > and also discover what counter-steering is. Just don't > blame me if you fall down. Falling down DOES happen, > especially when pushing limits. So be prepared. > > (If you've gotten this far, you know i've pretty much > repeated what so many others have stated, but it's all > worth repeating) > > And yes, on the track, only the front was used. But on > the street, both brakes should be mastered. > > I know, I know, I'm just rambling again. > > Doug E > '01 KLR650 > '97 GasGas 270 > '85 Ninja 600 (AFM #201, 1997 Super Dinosaur champion) > '95 XR100 > '00 XR50 (well, that's for the kids) > > > > Message: 9 > > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2003 23:23:20 -0800 > > From: Stan > > Subject: Re: Re: Using both brakes (was Galfer 320) > > > > > > > > We NorCal bastids who raced at Sears Point had a > > nice opportunity to > > practice all-out braking. You come out of turn 10 > > WFO, keep it open > > down the short back straight, and then brake like > > hell for the hairpin > > turn 11. > snip > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. > http://photos.yahoo.com/ > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com. List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > Unsubscribe by sending a blank message to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com . > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > >

On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 05:54:49PM -0700, Jim The Canoeist wrote:

> I read this again and do not see you prompting which way the bike will turn > with that left yank/right push. Is that wise? If there is still someone > out there who does not understand counter-steering, could we be sending them > out to do an experiment where the unexpected will happen? I'd rather say > that it will be a right turn and then, although skeptical, at least they are > looking for it. > Now, a puzzle for the rest of us. Does counter steering apply at 5mph? 10? > 15? If not, what is the difference? Looking for some physics explained. > -Jim in AZ

I like the mantra "push right, turn right, push left, turn left" just makes more sense to my brain and that's how I burned it in. On the KLR it seems that it isn't nearly as noticeable as soon as other bikes. I think it's because our steering is so light anyway. To really feel a sort of conscious push and the result it seems to be somewhere around 40mph before I have enough gyro going there is any real resistance. It works well below that of course, just takes a subtle poke is all. My guess where it starts is probably 10mph, speed above 'wobbling' pace when the bike pulls itself 'in line'. The way it works was explained like this to me and seems to make pretty good sense. If you get on a bicycle and barely move, when you turn the bars sharp left, if you don't counterweight your position the bike pretty much falls over to the right side. On a motorcycle the gyro picks up where the fall starts and you then are leaning properly for the turn. If you go to a parking lot and try rather emphatic countersteering at low speeds you feel it quite a lot, as a matter of fact you'll need to get on the gas to get stable again...or counterweight the bike. Counterweighting at very slow speeds was only a mention in the BRC I took with NJ Rider-Ed, it is the one thing I really wished they would have emphasized and had us practice. I sort of knew enough already and did it on my own, but a lot of riders seem to be glued to their seats as driving a car and don't instinctually think to get up and move around. It makes crawling speed U-turns possible basically without the white knuckle stiffness waiting for the bike to fall over. Since we're all on the topic, I really love this site for new rider information. It covers gear selection, bike selection and training very well, great forum group. http://www.beginnerbikes.com/ Of course I'm one of the vocal KLR pimps on the forum. -- ___ ______ _____ __ ________ ___ / _ |< < / == / ___/__ / /_ /_ __/ / __ ____ _ ___ /__ \ / __ |/ // / ****/ (_ / _ \/ __/ / / / _ \/ // / ' \/ _ \ /__/ /_/ |_/_//_/ == \___/\___/\__/ /_/ /_//_/\_,_/_/_/_/ .__/ (_) 8600 miles*Russel Lines*Supertrapp Race* /_/ http://www.panix.com/~cesser/mybike/

In a message dated 2003-12-10 1:10:19 PM Pacific Standard Time, onto1wheel@... writes:

> > Practice COUNTER STEERING. > > Many riders (including those with lots of experience) > don't know which way their bike will turn if they yank > hard on the left side of the bars. > If you yank on the left, and push on the right, you > will turn incredibly fast. (Make sure you have room on > BOTH sides in case you re not positive which way > you re going to go!) This should be practiced often. > Both directions. Practice at all speeds over 35. > (Check behind you first!) > >

And, if you can find a good area to practice sliding in the dirt, just like the flat trackers, with practice you'll find the easiest way to control a slide is with counter steering to keep the rear wheel hooking up. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 2003-12-10 6:31:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, jwalsh21@... writes:

> > I read this again and do not see you prompting which way the bike will turn > with that left yank/right push. Is that wise? If there is still someone > out there who does not understand counter-steering, could we be sending them > out to do an experiment where the unexpected will happen? I'd rather say > that it will be a right turn and then, although skeptical, at least they are > looking for it. > Now, a puzzle for the rest of us. Does counter steering apply at 5mph? 10? > 15? If not, what is the difference? Looking for some physics explained. > -Jim in AZ > >

Jim, Trying to keep the physics simple, counter steering works because of the gyroscopic effect of the front wheel. Hence the bike has to moving at sufficient speed to create enough of a gyro to have on effect on the bikes balance. Its that speed at which the bike starts to balance itself instead of you having to do all the balancing. That difference in how the bike balances is the trigger that makes it more or less natural to turn right by turning the wheel right at slow speeds and makes it natural to push on the left bar (pull on the right) once the bikes various gyros start doing the balancing. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Countersteering I think by not telling people, and letting them experience the sometimes surprising result, it has more impact. I've never taken the MSF course (only because it wasn't around when I was learning), so I don't know how they explain it. I could be wrong, given all this talk about gyro's and what not, but I had a more simple explanation (I don't remember where I heard this explanation); If you are traveling in a straight line, and shift your body to one side, you will _eventually_ turn to that side. BUT, If you are traveling in a straight line, and push on the right side of the bar sending your front tire to the left, out from under your motorcycle, your bike will then fall over to the right, causing you to turn right. This happens at speeds approx over 30-35 mph. Sorry if this is seen as spreading a non-truth or myth, but it always made some sense to me. I'm sure you could spend some time with google and come up with pictures, diagrams, and proper explanations. Doug E '01 KLR650 '97 GasGas 270 '85 Ninja 600 (ex AFM #201, 1997 Super Dinosaur champion) '95 XR100 '00 XR50 (well, that's for the kids)

> Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:54:49 -0700 > From: "Jim The Canoeist" > Subject: Re: Re: Using both brakes > > I read this again and do not see you prompting which > way the bike will turn > with that left yank/right push. Is that wise? If > there is still someone > out there who does not understand counter-steering, > could we be sending them > out to do an experiment where the unexpected will > happen? I'd rather say > that it will be a right turn and then, although > skeptical, at least they are > looking for it. > Now, a puzzle for the rest of us. Does counter > steering apply at 5mph? 10? > 15? If not, what is the difference? Looking for > some physics explained. > -Jim in AZ

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Good one Doug. It makes sense to me too. Gyroscopic and steering geometry discussions are valid and (luckily) the physical manifestations assist in the whole puzzle but two important forces have been neglected in discussion up-to-now. These are the inertia of bike/rider and the ability of the rider to apply physical forces to the bike. 1) The reason the bike turns right when the bars are (initially) turned left is because the steering DOES attempt to turn left but the mass of bike and rider in motion keeps on trucking to try to tip the bike over on its right side. In other words it initiates a lean to the right. 2) As the bike is cornering to the right, the bars must become turned to the right. In fact, if we attempt to hold the bars to the left and could overwhelm the now-leaning bike's natural desire to curve right, we would high-side to the right. The key here is that counter steering only initiates the lean (or a change in lean) and is immediately followed by steering to the other direction which quickly stabilizes based upon the geometry of the bike, change in the precession of spinning parts, and physical forces exerted by the rider. To change these balance of forces, counter-steering can again be utilized to lean over even further or to bring the bike upright. 3) In addition to turning the steering, the rider's inputs into the saddle, tank, footpegs, handlebars, and shift of body mass all give correction to the bike's leaning attitude and help control the path of the turn. These inputs become relatively less effective as speed increases. As it does, the force of the moving masses increases exponentially and the effect of counter-steering is amplified. As speed doubles, the force quadruples. For example, the amount of force exerted by the inertia of bike and rider at 80mph is 256 times more powerful than it is at 5mph (but only 16 times faster). 4) At slower speeds, the force that tries to tip us over as the bars are turned becomes relatively weak. The mass is the same but there is a square-law relationship between force and velocity. The slower you go, the more progressively powerful the rider's physical inputs are in relation to that of the counter-steering and gyroscopes. A turn of the bars to the left will no longer automatically lean the bike to the right if the rider applies now-significant body force to lean the bike left. Examples would be a weighted left footpeg or dipping a shoulder to the left. -Jim in AZ

----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug E" To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Cc: Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 9:41 AM Subject: Re: Using both brakes > Countersteering > I think by not telling people, and letting them > experience the sometimes surprising result, it has > more impact. > I've never taken the MSF course (only because it > wasn't around when I was learning), so I don't know > how they explain it. > I could be wrong, given all this talk about gyro's and > what not, but I had a more simple explanation (I don't > remember where I heard this explanation); > > If you are traveling in a straight line, and shift > your body to one side, you will _eventually_ turn to > that side. BUT, > > If you are traveling in a straight line, and push on > the right side of the bar sending your front tire to > the left, out from under your motorcycle, your bike > will then fall over to the right, causing you to turn > right. > This happens at speeds approx over 30-35 mph. > Sorry if this is seen as spreading a non-truth or > myth, but it always made some sense to me. > I'm sure you could spend some time with google and > come up with pictures, diagrams, and proper > explanations. > > Doug E > '01 KLR650 > '97 GasGas 270 > '85 Ninja 600 (ex AFM #201, 1997 Super Dinosaur > champion) > '95 XR100 > '00 XR50 (well, that's for the kids)

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Doug E wrote:

> Countersteering > I think by not telling people, and letting them > experience the sometimes surprising result, it has > more impact.

By not telling someone about it, they do not learn it. I, and countless others out there, have ridden motorcycles for years and years without ever knowing this, and therefore have not been able to take advantage of it's awesome power. Oh sure, I was "doing" it, as does everyone, but I didn't know what I was doing. When I learned it, from someone telling me how to do it, and a couple of other things, I started scraping the pegs and passing EVERYONE in my riding group. If you do not know how to counter steer, you can't turn fast. If you can't turn fast, you can't go fast into the corners, and you have much lower odds of avoiding an accident by steering around an obstacle quickly. Then you are not being as safe as you can while riding.

> I've never taken the MSF course (only because it > wasn't around when I was learning), so I don't know > how they explain it. > I could be wrong, given all this talk about gyro's and > what not, but I had a more simple explanation (I don't > remember where I heard this explanation); > > If you are traveling in a straight line, and shift > your body to one side, you will _eventually_ turn to > that side. BUT, > > If you are traveling in a straight line, and push on > the right side of the bar sending your front tire to > the left, out from under your motorcycle, your bike > will then fall over to the right, causing you to turn > right. > This happens at speeds approx over 30-35 mph.

For the record, this happens at speeds well below 30-35 mph too. All the way down to about 5-8 mph in fact. When the wheel is spinning fast enough for a qyro effect to take place, it's time to countersteer. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

>Ok, with Kevin, 11 for the brake upgrade. I'm contacting the relevant >parties and Mike C. of Eagle via Devon. > > >

Mike Cowlishaw should be contacted directly for anything related to Eagle Mfg. We email each other offlist a fair bit (mainly Mike giving me advice) but have no actual business relationship. I (happily) buy his stuff retail like everyone else. Devon

MrMoose, You took me out of context here. I was advising to not tell people *which way* their bike will turn when they jerk the bars. Many riders are surprised at what happens. I brought up the whole term COUNTERSTEERING on this list for the sole reason of raising everyones awareness of this very important way in which we steer motorcycles. (Stan originally mentioned "practicing hard evasive maneuvers") And I'm very glad it received lots of air-time! It deserves it. Tell everyone you know about countersteering! And also suggest the MSF course to anyone interested in motorcycling! Doug E '01 KLR650 '97 GasGas 270 '85 Ninja 600 '95 XR100 '00 XR50 From: "Keith Saltzer" Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:09 am Subject: Re: Using both brakes snip

>By not telling someone about it, they do not learn

it. I, and

>countless others out there, have ridden motorcycles

for years and

>years without ever knowing this, and therefore have

not been able to

>take advantage of it's awesome power.

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