Wilsons Sandbox

Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:28 pm**

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Sherlock" wrote:

> > There are some lazy, primarily union, American workers. Yet, I have

been to enough companies doing audits that I know most American workers are not lazy and are quality minded.

> > Jim Sherlock > > PS: The only good things I have seen coming out of Thailand are Thai

Sticks, shrimp, lobster, women, silk garmets. I certainly would not want them putting my KLR together.

>

Can't resist trolling, can you? Well here goes. Your gratuitous cheap shot at union labor is going to draw some fire: As a consumer, I would rather have my work done by someone with the gumption to get organized and get a fair share of the pie than by some drone working for minimum wage. Most union members in my acquaintance are not only harder-working than average, they are more skilled at their trades than scab labor. The success of the labor movement is a primary reason that so many working people in this country can count themselves as members of a prosperous middle class. Unfortunately, it is still true that our economic system, successful as it is, still relies to a large extent on the exploitation of cheap labor, which is why so mauch manufacturing goes offshore. Which brings us to Thailand. As long as we are going to rely on the exploitation of cheap foreign labor to bring us goods at an attractive price, why not the Thais. They are a hard-working people with a rich, sophisticated culture. The Thai immigrants I have encountered in this country tend to be gracious, industrious, intelligent and enterprising (I hope no one takes offense at this stereotyping). I don't see why their compatriots in Thailand cannot be relied upon to stand in an assembly line and perform simple tasks in a largely automated manufacturing process.

Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2003 3:37 pm**

On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Judson D. Jones wrote:

>Can't resist trolling, can you? Well here goes. Your gratuitous cheap >shot at union labor is going to draw some fire: As a consumer, I would >rather have my work done by someone with the gumption to get organized >and get a fair share of the pie than by some drone working for minimum >wage.

[stuff snipped] Ah, another union thread. It's simple. If it's high quality, thank the management. If it's low quality, blame the management. In the long run, the workers don't play as big of a role quality-wise as people think. And for the record, the UAW and the resulting high-cost of labor is one of the major factors in why the US automakers have had their lunch eaten by the Japanese and are about to have it eaten again by the Koreans (as long as Kim Ding-Dong doesn't pop off a nuke over Seoul anytime soon). RM

Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:08 pm**

Don't see why people need to make a big social/cultural thing out of what has happened to the KLR and your main point is a good one. ANYTIME production of an existing model is moved to a brand new plant there is a syndrome similar to bringing a brand-new model online. For at least a portion of one or two model years you are going to see some flaws here and there until the "bugs" in the new manufacturing facility and its equipment are worked out. No need to blame the workers whether high-paid union or low-paid 3rd world, and blame the management only if it persists for more than say one full year of production. IF the '03s turn out to be as bad as some people are reporting 01's and 02's to be then Kawasaki yes has a real *management* problem yes, and this 03 KLR will IAL be both the first and last Kawasaki I ever buy.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, RM wrote: > Ah, another union thread. > > It's simple. If it's high quality, thank the management. If it's low > quality, blame the management. > > In the long run, the workers don't play as big of a role quality- wise as > people think. > > And for the record, the UAW and the resulting high-cost of labor is one of > the major factors in why the US automakers have had their lunch eaten by > the Japanese and are about to have it eaten again by the Koreans (as long > as Kim Ding-Dong doesn't pop off a nuke over Seoul anytime soon). > > RM

Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2003 4:15 pm**

Good point, As any good QA/QC man knows, you focus on the process, not the people. That sherlock xenophobic tirade is another example of why old jim boy is on ignore. Lord knows, I've tried to stay impartial. But he says he's a quality expert and he doesn't act like he is. Conall

>From: "S. B. Lawrence " >To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: Quality of the KLR (NKLR rant) >Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 22:08:17 -0000 > >Don't see why people need to make a big social/cultural thing out of >what has happened to the KLR and your main point is a good one. >ANYTIME production of an existing model is moved to a brand new plant >there is a syndrome similar to bringing a brand-new model online. >For at least a portion of one or two model years you are going to see >some flaws here and there until the "bugs" in the new manufacturing >facility and its equipment are worked out. No need to blame the >workers whether high-paid union or low-paid 3rd world, and blame the >management only if it persists for more than say one full year of >production. IF the '03s turn out to be as bad as some people are >reporting 01's and 02's to be then Kawasaki yes has a real >*management* problem yes, and this 03 KLR will IAL be both the first >and last Kawasaki I ever buy. > >--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, RM wrote: > > Ah, another union thread. > > > > It's simple. If it's high quality, thank the management. If it's >low > > quality, blame the management. > > > > In the long run, the workers don't play as big of a role quality- >wise as > > people think. > > > > And for the record, the UAW and the resulting high-cost of labor is >one of > > the major factors in why the US automakers have had their lunch >eaten by > > the Japanese and are about to have it eaten again by the Koreans >(as long > > as Kim Ding-Dong doesn't pop off a nuke over Seoul anytime soon). > > > > RM

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Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2003 6:57 pm**

Ask a coal miner from the coal fields. Ask a PA steel worker. Ever wonder why it's cheaper to mine the coal in PA, ship it to Korea, have it used to make steel, import it back cheaper than it costs to make it in the US? Yeah, the unions improved working conditions, but when it came to getting a bigger piece of the pie, they F(*^$@# themselves. Oh, and add vision, dental, and pet insurance, OH, and don't forget the Ho-ho's inthe lunch room. And the vending machines that lose them money. Need I go on. My father worked in the PA coal fields, and watched conditions go from bad to good, then not at all as non-union mines took over the business. Same working conditions, better pay. Just had to pay for some of your benefits. No lunchroom caterers, no vending machines, just a work environment. Union? Look at the prices, look at the quality, then decide if you can buy 2 for the price of one in the next 5 years. millerized unions had their place, but that time isn't now. no need for nomex, flames don't burn anymore

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, RM wrote: > And for the record, the UAW and the resulting high-cost of labor is one of > the major factors in why the US automakers have had their lunch eaten by > the Japanese and are about to have it eaten again by the Koreans (as long > as Kim Ding-Dong doesn't pop off a nuke over Seoul anytime soon). > > RM

Posted: **Thu Feb 13, 2003 8:05 pm**

Give that man a Cigar.... I have said that for years, unions had there place, but do not think they are helping anymore. Watched my Dad go to work, only to show up back 10 minutes later, to say they decided to pull a wildcat strike for some silly reason, funny they already had beer in the trucks early in the morning. Guess they bitched and whined so much the company just said the hell with them and moved operations to another state, of course along the greedy lines, most of the work force was getting within a few years of retirement age also, so theres a nice way to screw them over. I dunno, was it a lets get outta paying all that retirement out in a few years more or could'nt afford to keep the benefits and wages going with the union bleeding them all the time ? I am not against or for, I believe they in could still serve a purpose, but have never been a member of one. Dooden --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "James L. Miller Jr. " wrote:

> Ask a coal miner from the coal fields. Ask a PA steel worker.

Ever

> wonder why it's cheaper to mine the coal in PA, ship it to Korea, > have it used to make steel, import it back cheaper than it costs to > make it in the US? Yeah, the unions improved working conditions, > but when it came to getting a bigger piece of the pie, they F(*^$@# > themselves. Oh, and add vision, dental, and pet insurance, OH, and > don't forget the Ho-ho's inthe lunch room. And the vending

machines

> that lose them money. Need I go on. My father worked in the PA > coal fields, and watched conditions go from bad to good, then not

at

> all as non-union mines took over the business. Same working > conditions, better pay. Just had to pay for some of your

benefits.

> No lunchroom caterers, no vending machines, just a work > environment. Union? Look at the prices, look at the quality, then > decide if you can buy 2 for the price of one in the next 5 years. > millerized > unions had their place, but that time isn't now. > no need for nomex, flames don't burn anymore > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, RM wrote: > > And for the record, the UAW and the resulting high-cost of labor > is one of > > the major factors in why the US automakers have had their lunch > eaten by > > the Japanese and are about to have it eaten again by the Koreans > (as long > > as Kim Ding-Dong doesn't pop off a nuke over Seoul anytime soon). > > > > RM

Posted: **Fri Feb 14, 2003 8:47 am**

I have worked both sides of the union fence in the CAW/UAW in both aerospace and automotive. I also feel that unions do more harm than good. At one time, they helped raise safety and working conditions but now all these things are legislated by law. Here is a good example of union stupidity: My brother worked in a dyno lab for a large automotive company. He was good at his job, knowing his way around engines and was considered an expert. During the recent job cuts, he was laid off because someone else from another plant had more seniority. Although they both had the same job grade, the other guy had never worked in a engine dyno lab before. Since they no longer had anyone competent to run the shop they had to close it down. So now the work is gone elsewhere and more than two people instead of just one are out of work. This is a typical example of how the union can "help" workers. (The company wanted to make his job a salary position, but the union wouldn't let it happen. He is now working at a the non-union firm they sub-contracted the dyno work to.) Bryan K A14 --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Judson D. Jones " wrote:

> --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Sherlock"

> wrote: > > > > > There are some lazy, primarily union, American workers. Yet, I

have

> been to enough companies doing audits that I know most American > workers are not lazy and are quality minded. > > > > Jim Sherlock > > > > PS: The only good things I have seen coming out of Thailand are

Thai

> Sticks, shrimp, lobster, women, silk garmets. I certainly would

not

> want them putting my KLR together. > > > > > Can't resist trolling, can you? Well here goes. Your gratuitous > cheap shot at union labor is going to draw some fire: As a

consumer, I

> would rather have my work done by someone with the gumption to get > organized and get a fair share of the pie than by some drone

working

> for minimum wage. Most union members in my acquaintance are not

only

> harder-working than average, they are more skilled at their trades > than scab labor. The success of the labor movement is a primary

reason

> that so many working people in this country can count themselves

as

> members of a prosperous middle class. Unfortunately, it is still

true

> that our economic system, successful as it is, still relies to a

large

> extent on the exploitation of cheap labor, which is why so mauch > manufacturing goes offshore. > > Which brings us to Thailand. As long as we are going to rely on

the

> exploitation of cheap foreign labor to bring us goods at an

attractive

> price, why not the Thais. They are a hard-working people with a

rich,

> sophisticated culture. The Thai immigrants I have encountered in

this

> country tend to be gracious, industrious, intelligent and

enterprising

> (I hope no one takes offense at this stereotyping). I don't see

why

> their compatriots in Thailand cannot be relied upon to stand in an > assembly line and perform simple tasks in a largely automated > manufacturing process.

Posted: **Fri Feb 14, 2003 10:36 am**

Now days the government is going broke. Post Office is always broke, so is Amtrak and so are the school and almost all state and city/county budgets,,,,a very large reason for this is Unions. How unions ever got into government I am not sure but they do not belong there and they are destroying this country. In a few short years you and I will be working a couple of months a year just to pay for all the Public Employees that have retired and are collecting pensions. They don't pay into Social Security. No congressman or Senator pays into Social Security but even if they are lousy and last only 1 or 2 terms they are set for life. I never could get a union job and the reason was almost lawyers because I didn't have union history? HUH? Tom Baumen James MIller wrote, "Union? Look at the prices, look at the quality, then decide if you can buy 2 for the price of one in the next 5 years. millerized unions had their place, but that time isn't now. no need for nomex, flames don't burn anymore"

Posted: **Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:12 am**

Another good reason against unions. The AFGE (american federation of gov't employee's) wanted to start a union at our building. After much consideration we decided not to. Investigation led up the realization that all they were were "layers who could read". The union KNOWS the law, and will help you and your employers follow it. I don't need to pay some guy $40 a month to read for me. Access to gov't rules and regulations, OSHA, and the rest of the "law" that works FOR you is all you need. Present the offending party with the "law" in black and white, they don't need much else. All you're getting out of a Union is them doing all the work. No room for a union here. Besides, it's more fun to solve problems with firearms, isn't it? millerized (did you ever see a gruntled gov't worker? Where did they get "dis" ed)

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Baumen" wrote: > Now days the government is going broke. Post Office is always broke, > so is Amtrak and so are the school and almost all state and > city/county budgets,,,,a very large reason for this is Unions. How > unions ever got into government I am not sure but they do not belong > there and they are destroying this country. In a few short years you > and I will be working a couple of months a year just to pay for all > the Public Employees that have retired and are collecting pensions. > They don't pay into Social Security. No congressman or Senator pays > into Social Security but even if they are lousy and last only 1 or 2 > terms they are set for life. > I never could get a union job and the reason was almost lawyers > because I didn't have union history? HUH? > Tom Baumen > James MIller wrote, > "Union? Look at the prices, look at the quality, then > decide if you can buy 2 for the price of one in the next 5 years. > millerized > unions had their place, but that time isn't now. > no need for nomex, flames don't burn anymore"

Posted: **Fri Feb 14, 2003 12:10 pm**

On Fri, 14 Feb 2003, bkowalca wrote:

>My brother worked in a dyno lab for a large automotive company. He was >good at his job, knowing his way around engines and was considered an >expert. During the recent job cuts, he was laid off because someone else >from another plant had more seniority. Although they both had the same >job grade, the other guy had never worked in a engine dyno lab before. >Since they no longer had anyone competent to run the shop they had to >close it down. So now the work is gone elsewhere and more than two people >instead of just one are out of work. This is a typical example of how the >union can "help" workers.

Here's another: The lunch bell rings, and the union dock worker is FIFTEEN SECONDS away from getting the final pallet onto a trailer that an owner-operator has to pull 1500 miles in some ridiculously short amount of time. The dock worker stops the forklift and walks away, forcing the small business owner who drives the truck to sit around for an hour. No amount of arm-twisting would get anyone to load the pallet, and nobody else can touch the forklift. The union did WHAT for the common man? Got him his lunch 15 seconds earlier and spread plenty of ill-will. This really happened at one of the Cycle World shows this year. That, and the unionized venue workers just dragging ass in general. RM

Wilsons Sandbox

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quality of the klr (nklr rant)

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