nklr: topsy turvy - dual-star centerstand

[TexasThumpin@aol.com]

In a message dated 12/31/01 2:15:52 AM Central Standard Time, DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com writes:

> My two main questions are: > > - Can I use the stock spacers? > > - How much fork oil do I add? > > - Any other tips are welcome... > > Thanks > Pat / Austin

Hi Pat, First, Merry Christmas and Happy New Year wishes for you and your family. No for the forks. You use the same amount of fluid that is specified in your manual. If you don't have one, give me a call and I'll see about looking it up for you, we are still kind of living out of boxes. As far as the spacers go, there are two ways to do it. The professional way, and the shade tree mechanics way. The professional way is to determine the proper amount of sag when you get on the bike, then cut spacers accordingly. This can take time and require that you make or trim spacers several times. The shade tree way is to do a seat of the pants method. Add the springs and new fluid, by the way, I recommend a minimum oil weight of 10. I have 10 now and I'm going to 15 during this winters maintenance. Talking into account that you are a fairly light and nimble fellow, you probably won't need much preload. Personally, I would can the stock spacers in favor of PVC tubing. They are much easier to work with, and easier to trim. Then you just ride the bike and adjust as you see fit. Since you will probably have the forks out, to ensure complete drainage of the old fluid, I would also recommend replacing the fork seals with the Teflon type available from Dennis Kirk. Fred probably has them also. One thing that I found to be crucial is that I needed to put a flat washer or slug in between the spacers and the springs to avoid any possible misalignment, cocking, or material shaving as time goes on. I have had my Progressives for over four years now, and I love them. Oh, make sure you put them in correctly. The closely wound coils go at one end, and the widely spaced coils go to the other end. The instructions tell you which way to go. Have fun. I know I will. Santa was good to daddy this year. Jim Texas Thumpin PS: I use a graduated cylinder to measure the exact amount of fluid being put in. I also use one to check and see what comes out. A lot of times, the forks won't be right in the first place. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Mark St.Hilaire, Sr]

> for the forks. You use the same amount of fluid that is specified in

your

> manual. If you don't have one, give me a call and I'll see about looking

it

> up for you, we are still kind of living out of boxes. As far as the

spacers I just finished up a fork oil change with stock springs, and went by the manual which says that for a 2001 KLR650, the correct amount of oil is 355mL. (Which is also, according to Mr. TI-86, 12oz or 1.5 cups.) I used PJ1 15 H.V.I. mostly because it was dead center of the 10-20 oil that the manual recommends, (and nobody sells.) Andy at FinishLineWest said he used 400mL, which I wondered about because the manual makes such a big deal about not overfilling the tubes for fear of blowing seals... Oh no, not THAT again! I just assumed that the new springs changed the volume of oil, for some reason. Wise men still seek Him... Mark St.Hilaire, Sr A15 HomePage: http://home.adelphia.net/~msaint/index.html KLR650 Pages: http://klr6500.tripod.com/ Valve Check & Adjustment Guide: http://klr6500.tripod.com/valves.html

[hens_p]

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., TexasThumpin@a... wrote: Thanks Jim and other for the spring install info. Installing the springs was easier than changing the oil. Very quick and simple. >You use the same amount of fluid that is specified in your > manual. Whoever fills the front oil at KHI is in serious need of supervision. One side had 400ml, the other had 350ml. I put a tad less that 400ml. >As far as the spacers > go, there are two ways to do it. The professional way, and the shade tree > mechanics way. I took the stock spacer and cut it in half. >I recommend a minimum oil weight of 10. I used 10 weight. >Talking into account that you are a > fairly light and nimble fellow, Light and nimble? I'm 190#; is that light? >I would also recommend replacing the fork > seals with the Teflon type I didn't do that. I'll wait for the leaks.... >One thing that I found to be crucial is that I needed to put a flat > washer or slug in between the spacers and the springs My bike had a formed washer between the spacer and the spring. i wonder why yours didn't? >The closely wound coils go at one end, and the widely > spaced coils go to the other end. Yes, that is the way they are built; close on one end-wide on the other. From my Physics classes were we studied springs until my brain exploded, I can tell you than up or down doesn't matter. Of course, it was Texas A&M so.... Anywho, I installed mine wide spacing up to lower my CG. , but actually it would have a slight effect... >Santa was good to daddy this year. Any KLR stuff? Pat / Austin

[hens_p]

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., "Mark St.Hilaire, Sr" wrote:

>I just assumed that the > new springs changed the volume of oil, for some reason.

I bet you are correct. I may bleed 20 or so ml out to be safe. Pat / Austin

[Fred Hink]

For what it's worth, and I agree, it probably doesn't make any difference which way the springs go, I would install the wide spacing down so that there is more volume for oil. More oil in the same area is good. This is also why I would measure fork oil level and not by volume. The amount of air on top of the oil is what is important, just so that both sides are reasonably close. Fred www.arrowheadmotorsports.com ***NEW*** www.canyonlandsmotorclassic.com

----- Original Message ----- From: "hens_p" To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2001 3:59 PM Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: Installing Progressive Front Springs > > From my Physics classes were we studied springs until my brain > exploded, I can tell you than up or down doesn't matter. Of course, > it was Texas A&M so.... > > Anywho, I installed mine wide spacing up to lower my CG. , but > actually it would have a slight effect...

[Jim Franklin]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 10:59:03PM -0000, hens_p wrote:

> >I took the stock spacer and cut it in half.

Too late now, but you probably shouldn't have been so drastic. You can always takemoreoff...pvcis cheap though.

>Light and nimble? I'm 190#; is that light?

Er, yea...just how does that sand taste?

>Anywho, I installed mine wide spacing up to lower my CG. , but >actually it would have a slight effect...

Heh...actually, the other way around would have been better,microscopically. The sprung weight is higher as you have them. But I challenge anyone to feel the difference. jim

[Jim Franklin]

On Mon, Dec 31, 2001 at 11:01:28PM -0000, hens_p wrote:

>--- In DSN_klr650@y..., "Mark St.Hilaire, Sr" wrote: >>I just assumed that the >> new springs changed the volume of oil, for some reason. > >I bet you are correct. I may bleed 20 or so ml out to be safe.

COntinuing my criticisms (sorry!), if you put the tight coils at the bottom you for sure raised the oil _level_, which is the vital measurement. As your forks compress so does the air space above the oil. Too much air and you don't get the squared cushioning effect that helps stop bottoming out. Too little and you get hydraulic lock and blow the fork seals out. jim

[Brian]

Doesn't that blow out the theory of measuring the oil level in mm, and not the quantity in ML in the legs? 190 mm +\- 2mm from the top with no springs and fully compressed. That is what I thought the manual recommended when I asked this question back when my forks dove faster than a prom date? It also seems to negate the 400 or so cc theory, No?? Or do we assume that the stock spring density is like the progressive density but only if the smaller winding is at the top and the moon is full, assuming you don't flip the bike of course..Seems like too many variables Thanks BRian

> >>I just assumed that the > >> new springs changed the volume of oil, for some reason. > > > >I bet you are correct. I may bleed 20 or so ml out to be safe. > > COntinuing my criticisms (sorry!), if you put the tight coils at the

bottom

> you for sure raised the oil _level_, which is the vital measurement.

[hens_p]

I think what we all argee on here is we don't know how much front oil to add. Regardless of if you spec the oil amount by volume (ml) or distance (mm from the top without springs) neither way takes into account the spring density. To make matters ever worse, Progressive tells you that you can put the springs in wide wound or tight wound side down; it doesn't matter. Well, it won't matter as to how the spring is compressed, but it has a major impact on the amount of fork oil. I'm still confused as to how much oil I should have in my tight wound down Progressive configuration. Something tells me 400ml is too much. Any guesses on the correct amount. Pat / Austin

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., David Kelly wrote: > "Brian" writes: > > Doesn't that blow out the theory of measuring the oil level in mm, and not > > the quantity in ML in the legs? 190 mm +\- 2mm from the top with no springs > > and fully compressed. That is what I thought the manual recommended when I > > asked this question back when my forks dove faster than a prom date? > > It also seems to negate the 400 or so cc theory, No?? Or do we assume that > > the stock spring density is like the progressive density but only if the > > smaller winding is at the top and the moon is full, assuming you don't flip > > the bike of course..Seems like too many variables > > Settle the issue once and for all. Set the _level_ according to the > manual. Then insert the stock springs and measure down the center. > Remove and reset the level (to compensate for oil on the OEM springs). > Then see how much different it is with the aftermarket springs. > > The whole point is to fill the forks with as much oil as possible but > not so much as to burst the oil seals at full compression. > > If in the past you were having problems with your front forks then its > my guess the factory oil level wasn't your problem but the factory oil > was. > > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@h... > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system.

[toddklr]

i just dumped out the old oil and measured down from the top or the forks 190 mm down from the top of the fork tube.i tried it at higher and lower levels,higher makes the forks harsh and lower and they feel too soft.you can put the springs in either way it wont effect the level enuff to matter. todd wizbangchassis@...

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., David Kelly wrote: > "hens_p" writes: > > I think what we all argee on here is we don't know how much front oil > > to add. Regardless of if you spec the oil amount by volume (ml) or > > distance (mm from the top without springs) neither way takes into > > account the spring density. To make matters ever worse, Progressive > > tells you that you can put the springs in wide wound or tight wound > > side down; it doesn't matter. > > > > Well, it won't matter as to how the spring is compressed, but it has > > a major impact on the amount of fork oil. > > No, it doesn't matter at all whether or not the tight or loose side is > down. At least it doesn't matter as far as the oil level goes because > what we're really measuring when we measure the oil level isn't the > amount of oil in the fork but the amount of air left in the fork. > > The whole point is that we need to leave enough volume of air so when > the fork compresses there isn't so much air pressure that the fork > seals burst. Also is important to balance left and right else the > effective spring rate of each leg will be different due to the > different volumes of compressed air. > > > I'm still confused as to how much oil I should have in my tight wound > > down Progressive configuration. Something tells me 400ml is too much. > > Any guesses on the correct amount. > > As I suggested before, set the specified factory oil _level_ (without > spring) then insert the factory spring and measure the _level_ again. > Replace with aftermarket spring and readjust to the same level as you > measured with the factory spring. > > Rather than measure down the center of the spring (much of which is > sticking up out of the compressed fork) use the spring itself as a dip > stick. > > Even as a self-professed perfectionist, I think you are sweating the > details too much. Measurement of oil by volume poured is grossly > inaccurate as one has no idea as to how well the old oil was drained. We > don't blindly pour premeasured quantities of motor oil when changing > engine oil, or at least not until we've done the change a few times. And > always when changing motor oil we check the dipstick or sight glass to > verify our work. So why should forks be any different? Measure by volume > so you know how much to purchase. Measure by level to know you have the > right amount installed. > > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@h... > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system.