Page 1 of 6
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2001 4:43 pm
by Chris Krok
> Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the documented shootings
> they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two excellent
> books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for yourself.
> They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power.
Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down
enough for shots 2+?
> As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in the illegal
> drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am aware of
> teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if the attacker
> keeps coming.
Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police
departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training
they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency"
situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros?
--
Dr. J. Christopher Krok
Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel
MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125
Big Cee Engineering
http://www.bigcee.com
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:06 pm
by marcclarke@unforgettable.com
----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Krok
>To:
DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DSN_klr650] NKLR stoppies (in the criminal sense)
>Date: Monday, October 01, 2001 15:50
>
>
>> Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the documented shootings
>> they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two excellent
>> books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for yourself.
>> They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power.
>
>Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down
>enough for shots 2+?
Yes. Training calls for two fast shots to the upper abdomen followed by a third shot to the head if the attacker has not gone down (i.e., is wearing a bullet-resistant vest). The problem is that the first solid hit wins, and against multiple attackers the defender may not have enough time or ammunition to expend three shots per attacker.
>> As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in the illegal
>> drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am aware of
>> teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if the attacker
>> keeps coming.
>
>Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police
>departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training
>they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency"
>situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros?
>--
>Dr. J. Christopher Krok
>Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel
>MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125
If your thorax query was humorous, sorry, I missed it. Would you prefer I say "abdomen"? Or "upper chest"? Sorry, I should have been more clear.
The more advanced pros are trained to aim for the intersection of the vertical line drawn down the spine and a horizontal line drawn between the armpits. This aiming point maximizes the probability of a hit which will immediately stop the attacker. The older style of training teaches aiming for the center of mass. This older style assumes poorer marksmanship and tries simply to maximize the probability of a hit, even if the hit is not a stopping hit.
-- Marc, Kawasaki KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:37 pm
by Chris Krok
> If your thorax query was humorous, sorry, I missed it. Would you prefer I say "abdomen"? Or "upper chest"? Sorry, I should have been more clear.
No, it was serious. I thought "thorax" referred to the neck. I have
looked it up, and it is much more reasonable.
El Krokko http://www.bigcee.com
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:40 pm
by Peter Dahlheimer, MD
i have opened up a couple of thoraces (pleural), but i have no idea what an
adaptive wind tunnel is...
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at
http://mail.yahoo.com
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:49 pm
by Dale Johnson
What about double tapping?
Dale
--- In DSN_klr650@y..., Chris Krok wrote:
>
> > Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the
documented shootings
> > they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two
excellent
> > books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for
yourself.
> > They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power.
>
> Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down
> enough for shots 2+?
>
> > As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in
the illegal
> > drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am
aware of
> > teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if
the attacker
> > keeps coming.
>
> Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police
> departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training
> they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency"
> situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros?
>
>
> --
> Dr. J. Christopher Krok
> Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel
> MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125
>
> Big Cee Engineering
>
http://www.bigcee.com
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2001 6:00 pm
by FGJ
> What about double tapping?
>
> Dale
>
In theory a double tap is great as the 2nd round puts the blood
pressure
over the top, but in real gunfights there's so much stress that even
experienced cops expend 3 rounds per hit on an assailant and usually
they're within 7 yards, essentially on top of each other, it's not uncommon
for someone to be jacking rounds into the floor as they're clearing the
holster, the wonderful world of adrenaline. I think the only people who
actually execute double taps are the SAS and the like.
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2001 7:48 pm
by marcclarke@unforgettable.com
Chris,
Phew! I learned the use of the anatomical term "thorax" when I underwent "major thoracic surgery". Most assuredly not in my neck region. Where is Dr. Pete to help us clarify medical terms when we need him?
-- Marc, Kawasaki KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA
----Original Message-----
>From: Chris Krok
>To: marcclarke@...
>Cc:
DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: NKLR stoppies (in the criminal sense)
>Date: Monday, October 01, 2001 16:44
>
>
>> If your thorax query was humorous, sorry, I missed it. Would you prefer I say "abdomen"? Or "upper chest"? Sorry, I should have been more clear.
>
>No, it was serious. I thought "thorax" referred to the neck. I have
>looked it up, and it is much more reasonable.
>
>El Krokko
>--
>Dr. J. Christopher Krok
>Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel
>MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2001 6:24 am
by tismybutt@yahoo.com
The biggest problem with the "professionals"(please, no offense in
tended!)Most local law enforcement agencies require an officer to
qaulify with thier firearm once, maybe twice a year. That is the most
use they see. Some don't practice at all! I'm pretty sure most
officers would rather not have to use thier pistol at all. Any one
out there with a badge care to comment? I'd be interested to here how
much range time one gets.
--- In DSN_klr650@y..., Chris Krok wrote:
>
> > Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the
documented shootings
> > they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two
excellent
> > books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for
yourself.
> > They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power.
>
> Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down
> enough for shots 2+?
>
> > As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in
the illegal
> > drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am
aware of
> > teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if
the attacker
> > keeps coming.
>
> Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police
> departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training
> they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency"
> situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros?
>
>
> --
> Dr. J. Christopher Krok
> Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel
> MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125
>
> Big Cee Engineering
>
http://www.bigcee.com
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2001 9:25 am
by Rob Fowler
Any one out there with a badge care to comment? I'd be interested to here
how
> much range time one gets.
Twice a year. With maybe 300 rounds total.
> --- In DSN_klr650@y..., Chris Krok wrote:
> >
> > > Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the
> documented shootings
> > > they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two
> excellent
> > > books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for
> yourself.
> > > They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power.
> >
> > Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down
> > enough for shots 2+?
> >
> > > As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in
> the illegal
> > > drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am
> aware of
> > > teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if
> the attacker
> > > keeps coming.
> >
> > Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police
> > departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training
> > they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency"
> > situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. J. Christopher Krok
> > Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel
> > MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125
> >
> > Big Cee Engineering
> >
http://www.bigcee.com
>
>
> Checkout Dual Sport News at
>
http://www.dualsportnews.com
> Be part of the Adventure!
>
> Visit the KLR650 archives at
>
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>
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>
>
>
nklr stoppies (in the criminal sense)
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2001 12:37 pm
by David Critchley
As a Federal prison guard in Edmonton Alberta, our standard is that we must
qualify once per year with all weapons.
Keep in mind that the current Canadian govt has an interest in depriving all
law-abiding citizens of their firearms , so our official party line is a lot
different to most civilized places, unfortunately.
David C
tismybutt@... wrote:
> The biggest problem with the "professionals"(please, no offense in
> tended!)Most local law enforcement agencies require an officer to
> qaulify with thier firearm once, maybe twice a year. That is the most
> use they see. Some don't practice at all! I'm pretty sure most
> officers would rather not have to use thier pistol at all. Any one
> out there with a badge care to comment? I'd be interested to here how
> much range time one gets.
>
> --- In DSN_klr650@y..., Chris Krok wrote:
> >
> > > Sanow and Marshall looked at all of those factors in the
> documented shootings
> > > they examined. I respectfully encourage you to read their two
> excellent
> > > books, "Handgun Stopping Power" and "Street Stoppers" for
> yourself.
> > > They chose to focus on measured first shot stopping power.
> >
> > Even if the first shot doesn't stop them, doesn't it slow them down
> > enough for shots 2+?
> >
> > > As to the bullet-resistant vest, which more and more people in
> the illegal
> > > drug trade are wearing these days, every shooting course I am
> aware of
> > > teaches two shots to the thorax followed by one to the head if
> the attacker
> > > keeps coming.
> >
> > Isn't the thorax an awfully small target? Even though police
> > departments probably aren't funded enough for the degree of training
> > they'd like, I thought they go for center of mass in "emergency"
> > situations. Should we be able to do better than the pros?
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dr. J. Christopher Krok
> > Caltech Adaptive Wind Tunnel
> > MS 205-45, Pasadena, CA 91125
> >
> > Big Cee Engineering
> >
http://www.bigcee.com
>
> Checkout Dual Sport News at
>
http://www.dualsportnews.com
> Be part of the Adventure!
>
> Visit the KLR650 archives at
>
http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650
>
> Post message:
DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com
> Subscribe:
DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Unsubscribe:
DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> List owner:
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>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
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