Wilsons Sandbox

Posted: **Fri Aug 03, 2001 11:04 am**

In response to the oil quandary, here is my 75 cents worth, 1. The clutch problems associated with synthetic oils is not one of the oil breaking down, but one of the oil being "too slippery". The clutches slip in some motorcycles after running a synthetic oil for a few hundred miles. For some reason this does not happen in the Mobil 1, KLR combination. It is common knowledge that in many other Japanese motorcycles, clutch slip is a common malady after running a synthetic oil, and their is no way around it. In most cases the friction plates have to be replaced before the slippage is remedied. They get really slippery and stay that way. There are no facts to back up motorcycle transmission breaking down synthetic oil, where the engine and transmission use a common oil supply. There is a great deal of trouble where transmissions using a separate oil supply that has required a "gear oil" have Mobil 1 dumped in them. The engineering specifications on the manufacture of gears is specific to the type of lubricant that they are meant to run. A gear meant to run in a hypoid lubricant such as in your car, is absolutely different than a gear meant to run in a 10W40 engine oil. Synthetic or conventional, try replacing the axle oil in a rear drive car with engine oil. Kiss the gears goodbye regardless of the weight used. Some motorcycle magazines have mentioned more than once that using a synthetic in the gearbox causes problems. Yes they are right because the gearboxes have called for "gear oil" which is not the same as engine oil, synthetic or otherwise. The specifications for a requiring a "gear oil" are different from a transmission that can use "engine oil". That's why Mobil does sell a synthetic gear oil. 2. The "too slippery" situation can cause other problems. Harley-Davidson has had a specific problem with synthetic based oils. The big end connection rod bearings do not get enough traction (coefficient of friction) between the rollers and the races when running a quality synthetic oil. The rollers actually stop turning and skid, develop flat spots and then problems really start. This is not speculation but actual fact and is the reason synthetic oils will void a factory warranty on any H-D. I am not down on synthetic oils, but I wonder about their value when I see Japanese motorcycle engines running quality conventional oils that will never fail because of a lubrication related problem. The KLR is a perfect example of that. Valve guides are normally the first thing to fail on a properly lubricated large bore Japanese engine. And when the valve guides get bad on a KLR, it still keeps ticking away. Tom McKenzie tom@... A15, Drifter 1500, XS 650 Sidehack [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Posted: **Fri Aug 03, 2001 11:19 am**

Someone putting engine oil, synthetic or not, into a gearbox is a blunder on a whole other level than choice of oil. More importantly, do you have any photos of your XS650 hack? Devon Tom McKenzie wrote:

> > In response to the oil quandary, here is my 75 cents worth, > > 1. The clutch problems associated with synthetic oils is not one of the oil breaking down, but one of the oil being "too slippery". The clutches slip in some motorcycles after running a synthetic oil for a few hundred miles. For some reason this does not happen in the Mobil 1, KLR combination. It is common knowledge that in many other Japanese motorcycles, clutch slip is a common malady after running a synthetic oil, and their is no way around it. In most cases the friction plates have to be replaced before the slippage is remedied. They get really slippery and stay that way. There are no facts to back up motorcycle transmission breaking down synthetic oil, where the engine and transmission use a common oil supply. There is a great deal of trouble where transmissions using a separate oil supply that has required a "gear oil" have Mobil 1 dumped in them. The engineering specifications on the manufacture of gears is specific to the type of lubricant that they are meant to run. A > gear meant to run in a hypoid lubricant such as in your car, is absolutely different than a gear meant to run in a 10W40 engine oil. Synthetic or conventional, try replacing the axle oil in a rear drive car with engine oil. Kiss the gears goodbye regardless of the weight used. Some motorcycle magazines have mentioned more than once that using a synthetic in the gearbox causes problems. Yes they are right because the gearboxes have called for "gear oil" which is not the same as engine oil, synthetic or otherwise. The specifications for a requiring a "gear oil" are different from a transmission that can use "engine oil". That's why Mobil does sell a synthetic gear oil. > > 2. The "too slippery" situation can cause other problems. Harley-Davidson has had a specific problem with synthetic based oils. The big end connection rod bearings do not get enough traction (coefficient of friction) between the rollers and the races when running a quality synthetic oil. The rollers actually stop turning and skid, develop flat spots and then problems really start. This is not speculation but actual fact and is the reason synthetic oils will void a factory warranty on any H-D. > > I am not down on synthetic oils, but I wonder about their value when I see Japanese motorcycle engines running quality conventional oils that will never fail because of a lubrication related problem. The KLR is a perfect example of that. Valve guides are normally the first thing to fail on a properly lubricated large bore Japanese engine. And when the valve guides get bad on a KLR, it still keeps ticking away. > > Tom McKenzie tom@... > A15, Drifter 1500, XS 650 Sidehack > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Posted: **Fri Aug 03, 2001 11:31 am**

C'mon guys, there are different kinds of bikes out there....My NSR runs a 10W-30 in the gear box, any auto oil is fine...how ever it has a dry clutch. Many other 2T boxes use light weight auto oils. --glenn

>Someone putting engine oil, synthetic or not, into a gearbox is a >blunder on a whole other level than choice of oil.

Devon Tom McKenzie wrote:

> > In response to the oil quandary, here is my 75 cents worth, > > 1. The clutch problems associated with synthetic oils is not one of

the oil breaking down, but one of the oil being "too slippery". The clutches slip in some motorcycles after running a synthetic oil for a few hundred miles. For some reason this does not happen in the Mobil 1, KLR combination. It is common knowledge that in many other Japanese motorcycles, clutch slip is a common malady after running a synthetic oil, and their is no way around it. In most cases the friction plates have to be replaced before the slippage is remedied. They get really slippery and stay that way. There are no facts to back up motorcycle transmission breaking down synthetic oil, where the engine and transmission use a common oil supply. There is a great deal of trouble where transmissions using a separate oil supply that has required a "gear oil" have Mobil 1 dumped in them. The engineering specifications on the manufacture of gears is specific to the type of lubricant that they are meant to run. A

> gear meant to run in a hypoid lubricant such as in your car, is

absolutely different than a gear meant to run in a 10W40 engine oil. Synthetic or conventional, try replacing the axle oil in a rear drive car with engine oil. Kiss the gears goodbye regardless of the weight used. Some motorcycle magazines have mentioned more than once that using a synthetic in the gearbox causes problems. Yes they are right because the gearboxes have called for "gear oil" which is not the same as engine oil, synthetic or otherwise. The specifications for a requiring a "gear oil" are different from a transmission that can use "engine oil". That's why Mobil does sell a synthetic gear oil.

> > 2. The "too slippery" situation can cause other problems.

Harley-Davidson has had a specific problem with synthetic based oils. The big end connection rod bearings do not get enough traction (coefficient of friction) between the rollers and the races when running a quality synthetic oil. The rollers actually stop turning and skid, develop flat spots and then problems really start. This is not speculation but actual fact and is the reason synthetic oils will void a factory warranty on any H-D.

> > I am not down on synthetic oils, but I wonder about their value when I

see Japanese motorcycle engines running quality conventional oils that will never fail because of a lubrication related problem. The KLR is a perfect example of that. Valve guides are normally the first thing to fail on a properly lubricated large bore Japanese engine. And when the valve guides get bad on a KLR, it still keeps ticking away.

> > Tom McKenzie tom@... > A15, Drifter 1500, XS 650 Sidehack > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: http://www.dualsportnews.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Posted: **Fri Aug 03, 2001 12:04 pm**

Your NSR has a gearbox separate from the crankcase, and it still uses engine oil? That's interesting, and the first I have heard of such a thing (my not knowing about it shouldn't be regarded as significant). What other gearboxes use engine oil, when they aren't connected to the crankcase and have the ability to run something different than the engine oil? I guess nothing can be considered too obvious to mention, I've learned my lesson. Putting engine oil in a gearbox that specifies GEAR oil is a blunder on a whole other level than choice of oil. Devon Glenn wrote:

> > C'mon guys, there are different kinds of bikes out there....My NSR runs > a 10W-30 in the gear box, any auto oil is fine...how ever it has a dry > clutch. Many other 2T boxes use light weight auto oils. > --glenn > > >Someone putting engine oil, synthetic or not, into a gearbox is a > >blunder on a whole other level than choice of oil. > > > > Devon > > Tom McKenzie wrote: > > > > In response to the oil quandary, here is my 75 cents worth, > > > > 1. The clutch problems associated with synthetic oils is not one of > the oil breaking down, but one of the oil being "too slippery". The > clutches slip in some motorcycles after running a synthetic oil for a > few hundred miles. For some reason this does not happen in the Mobil 1, > KLR combination. It is common knowledge that in many other Japanese > motorcycles, clutch slip is a common malady after running a synthetic > oil, and their is no way around it. In most cases the friction plates > have to be replaced before the slippage is remedied. They get really > slippery and stay that way. There are no facts to back up motorcycle > transmission breaking down synthetic oil, where the engine and > transmission use a common oil supply. There is a great deal of trouble > where transmissions using a separate oil supply that has required a > "gear oil" have Mobil 1 dumped in them. The engineering specifications > on the manufacture of gears is specific to the type of lubricant that > they are meant to run. A > > gear meant to run in a hypoid lubricant such as in your car, is > absolutely different than a gear meant to run in a 10W40 engine oil. > Synthetic or conventional, try replacing the axle oil in a rear drive > car with engine oil. Kiss the gears goodbye regardless of the weight > used. Some motorcycle magazines have mentioned more than once that > using a synthetic in the gearbox causes problems. Yes they are right > because the gearboxes have called for "gear oil" which is not the same > as engine oil, synthetic or otherwise. The specifications for a > requiring a "gear oil" are different from a transmission that can use > "engine oil". That's why Mobil does sell a synthetic gear oil. > > > > 2. The "too slippery" situation can cause other problems. > Harley-Davidson has had a specific problem with synthetic based oils. > The big end connection rod bearings do not get enough traction > (coefficient of friction) between the rollers and the races when running > a quality synthetic oil. The rollers actually stop turning and skid, > develop flat spots and then problems really start. This is not > speculation but actual fact and is the reason synthetic oils will void a > factory warranty on any H-D. > > > > I am not down on synthetic oils, but I wonder about their value when I > see Japanese motorcycle engines running quality conventional oils that > will never fail because of a lubrication related problem. The KLR is a > perfect example of that. Valve guides are normally the first thing to > fail on a properly lubricated large bore Japanese engine. And when the > valve guides get bad on a KLR, it still keeps ticking away. > > > > Tom McKenzie tom@... > > A15, Drifter 1500, XS 650 Sidehack > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Posted: **Fri Aug 03, 2001 12:25 pm**

I think I said it here before but a friend of mine has a Honda Civic 92. It is car yes. Anyway, in the haynes manual it states that it should use motor oil 10w40 in the gearbox. I was really surprised by that but what can you say? I assume it has a dry clutch so it is only for the gearbox and nothing else. Claes. -----Original Message----- From: Devon Jarvis [mailto:jarvisd@...] Sent: 03 August 2001 18:03 To: KLR650 group Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Oil Stories Your NSR has a gearbox separate from the crankcase, and it still uses engine oil? That's interesting, and the first I have heard of such a thing (my not knowing about it shouldn't be regarded as significant). What other gearboxes use engine oil, when they aren't connected to the crankcase and have the ability to run something different than the engine oil? I guess nothing can be considered too obvious to mention, I've learned my lesson. Putting engine oil in a gearbox that specifies GEAR oil is a blunder on a whole other level than choice of oil. Devon Glenn wrote:

> > C'mon guys, there are different kinds of bikes out there....My NSR

runs

> a 10W-30 in the gear box, any auto oil is fine...how ever it has a dry > clutch. Many other 2T boxes use light weight auto oils. > --glenn > > >Someone putting engine oil, synthetic or not, into a gearbox is a > >blunder on a whole other level than choice of oil. > > > > Devon > > Tom McKenzie wrote: > > > > In response to the oil quandary, here is my 75 cents worth, > > > > 1. The clutch problems associated with synthetic oils is not one of > the oil breaking down, but one of the oil being "too slippery". The > clutches slip in some motorcycles after running a synthetic oil for a > few hundred miles. For some reason this does not happen in the Mobil

1,

> KLR combination. It is common knowledge that in many other Japanese > motorcycles, clutch slip is a common malady after running a synthetic > oil, and their is no way around it. In most cases the friction plates > have to be replaced before the slippage is remedied. They get really > slippery and stay that way. There are no facts to back up motorcycle > transmission breaking down synthetic oil, where the engine and > transmission use a common oil supply. There is a great deal of trouble > where transmissions using a separate oil supply that has required a > "gear oil" have Mobil 1 dumped in them. The engineering specifications > on the manufacture of gears is specific to the type of lubricant that > they are meant to run. A > > gear meant to run in a hypoid lubricant such as in your car, is > absolutely different than a gear meant to run in a 10W40 engine oil. > Synthetic or conventional, try replacing the axle oil in a rear drive > car with engine oil. Kiss the gears goodbye regardless of the weight > used. Some motorcycle magazines have mentioned more than once that > using a synthetic in the gearbox causes problems. Yes they are right > because the gearboxes have called for "gear oil" which is not the same > as engine oil, synthetic or otherwise. The specifications for a > requiring a "gear oil" are different from a transmission that can use > "engine oil". That's why Mobil does sell a synthetic gear oil. > > > > 2. The "too slippery" situation can cause other problems. > Harley-Davidson has had a specific problem with synthetic based oils. > The big end connection rod bearings do not get enough traction > (coefficient of friction) between the rollers and the races when

running

> a quality synthetic oil. The rollers actually stop turning and skid, > develop flat spots and then problems really start. This is not > speculation but actual fact and is the reason synthetic oils will void

a

> factory warranty on any H-D. > > > > I am not down on synthetic oils, but I wonder about their value when

I

> see Japanese motorcycle engines running quality conventional oils that > will never fail because of a lubrication related problem. The KLR is

a

> perfect example of that. Valve guides are normally the first thing to > fail on a properly lubricated large bore Japanese engine. And when

the

> valve guides get bad on a KLR, it still keeps ticking away. > > > > Tom McKenzie tom@... > > A15, Drifter 1500, XS 650 Sidehack > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: http://www.dualsportnews.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Posted: **Fri Aug 03, 2001 12:32 pm**

In a message dated 8/3/01 10:21:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jarvisd@... writes: << Your NSR has a gearbox separate from the crankcase, and it still uses engine oil? That's interesting, and the first I have heard of such a thing (my not knowing about it shouldn't be regarded as significant). What other gearboxes use engine oil, when they aren't connected to the crankcase and have the ability to run something different than the engine oil? >> My 74 Honda Civc specified 10-40 engine oil for the tranny as did my daughter's 86 Chevy Sprint (made by Suzuki). Kurt Grife

Posted: **Fri Aug 03, 2001 12:40 pm**

I am glad I added "my not knowing about it shouldn't be regarded as significant" when I asked the question about gearbox lube. My experience is limited to older vehicles. I stand corrected. Devon A15 78 SR500 81 SR500 Krgrife@... wrote:

> > In a message dated 8/3/01 10:21:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > jarvisd@... writes: > > engine oil? That's interesting, and the first I have heard of such a > thing (my not knowing about it shouldn't be regarded as significant). > What other gearboxes use engine oil, when they aren't connected to the > crankcase and have the ability to run something different than the > engine oil? >> > > My 74 Honda Civc specified 10-40 engine oil for the tranny as did my > daughter's 86 Chevy Sprint (made by Suzuki). > Kurt Grife > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > > Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com > Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com > Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com > > Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: > http://www.dualsportnews.com > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Posted: **Fri Aug 03, 2001 6:43 pm**

Steve, I had a NX650 back in '90. I sold it in '92. It was an outstanding bike. However, when I decided to re-enter the DP market, I chose the KLR. I did so because it is liquid cooled, has a larger fuel tank (greater distance between fill-ups), more popular (which means easier to get parts -- used and aftermarket), comes with a rack, wider stock tire (130mm vs. 120mm), -- without a doubt -- a better seat (but still not great), a rear rotor (as opposed to drum -- not necessarily a better stopper though -- IMHO the KLR's stock front break is not up to the task), and "tougher" (the NX's ABS bodywork is more brittle than the KLR's -- if you go down, the bodywork tabs WILL break). BUT, the NX was a very fun bike. And it is different (in the US anyway). The motor is the Honda RFVC head motor that they have been using for YEARS (in one form or another -- FT(?), GB, XL, XR, NX). Here is my final thought: I would buy a second KLR before I would buy another NX650. Drew Sorry, no KLX experience... and man those factory paint jobs were nasty!!! -----Original Message----- From: SPEEDBAR@... [mailto:SPEEDBAR@...] Sent: Friday, August 03, 2001 4:11 PM To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_klr650] KLR vs NX650 ? Hello all. Been lurking here for for a few weeks and have got the bug for a single cyl. bike which would be my first single. The KLR would be my first choice but today I spotted a very nice NX650 ('89) with extras and low miles. Any previous / present NX owners out there with pros, cons versus the KLX? My riding would consist of 90% pavement and 10% dirt. Thanks for any comments. Steve '94 R1100RS S.C. Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Post message: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subscribe: DSN_klr650-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Unsubscribe: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com List owner: DSN_klr650-owner@yahoogroups.com Support Dual Sport News by subscribing at: http://www.dualsportnews.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Wilsons Sandbox

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klr vs nx650 ?