question re side cases - luggage

[Bill Watson]

Norm, I m sure you know this already but I'm not sure if a certain detail came through in your memo to the group. I ll put it all in caps because it s the focal point of this entire memo, and we know how many people just skim the posts if they get only one thing from this memo, this is it: MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS DO NOT THICKEN AS THEY GET WARMER. ALL OILS THIN AS THEY GET WARM, THE MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS JUST DON T THIN AS QUICKLY. Wasn t yelling Whew! Caps off. Anyway, a 10 weight oil is a certain viscosity when cold (as you pointed out) and if heated, gets thinner (also as you pointed out). A 30 weight oil, when cold, is a higher viscosity than a 10 when cold, but when the 30 is heated, it too gets thinner. A lot. So when we purchase a 10-30W oil, a lot of people think that the oil, as it gets hotter, is somehow getting thicker or has higher viscosity. It doesn t. A 10-30W oil is just like a straight 10 weight when cold, and as the oil is warmed, it doesn t thin as quickly as a straight 10 weight. The 10-30W DOES thin, but slowly, if you will, and once up to the higher temp point, it is as thin as a hot 30 wt. So a 10-30W oil is really a base stock of 10 wt, with viscosity improvers (VI) added to have it not thin as quickly with temperature. A 10-50, for instance, would have an even flatter line of thinning with temp. But as oil ages, and is sheared and all, the VI package isn't as effective, and it starts becoming a 10-45, then a 10-40, then a 10-35, etc. Getting out of my knowledge range here but that's the concept anyway. So to answer your question about your friend with a truck that burned more oil when he ran 10-30W when compared to straight 30W, I would argue that it is a simple case of the fact that when cold, the 10-30W was of course thinner than a straight 30 wt, and given the piston-to-wall clearances and ring condition with his engine at that stage, it was easier to drink the 10 wt rather than a 30 wt ? And with all that said, do I use multi-viscotiy oils? You bet! Hope this helps, Bill Watson Phoenix, AZ --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[E.L. Green]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Bill Watson wrote:

> MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS DO NOT THICKEN AS THEY GET WARMER. ALL OILS THIN AS

THEY GET WARM, THE MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS JUST DON'T THIN AS QUICKLY.

> > Wasn't yelling Whew! Caps off. Anyway, a 10 weight oil is a certain viscosity when

cold (as you pointed out) and if heated, gets thinner (also as you pointed out). A 30 weight oil, when cold, is a higher viscosity than a 10 when cold, but when the 30 is heated, it too gets thinner. A lot. ...

> So a 10-30W oil is really a base stock of 10 wt, with viscosity improvers (VI) added to

have it not thin as quickly with temperature. That is not exactly true. A 10W-30 oil may also be a 30w oil with pour point depressants or de-paraffinized to reduce or eliminate the amount of waxes that cause oil to become thicker at lower temperatures. Or a 20w oil with pour-point depressants and viscosity improvers. Etc. The important thing is that its flow characteristics at the specified lower temperature are similar to that of a 10-weight "straight" oil and its flow characteristics at the specified higher temperature are similar to that of a 30-weight "straight oil". This has some relationship to protective ability or composition of the oil, but it is by no means a linear relationship. A 10w-30 oil created by removing paraffins and aromatics from a 30- weight oil so that it does not thicken as much at lower temperatures (or simply never having any to begin with, such as a full synthetic) will have more oil molecules per liter and thus likely better lubricating and protective capabilities than a 10w-30 created by starting with a 10-weight oil and adding viscosity improvers, as well as being less succeptible to shearing reducing its viscosity since oil molecules tend to be tougher than the viscosity-improver molecules typically used. Because pour point depressants can be sheared also, the viscosity of oils that depend upon pour point depressants can actually *rise* as the PPD's are sheared. I have seen oil analysis where this has happened, albeit the oil analysis in question was for a long-term test in a motor pool (sorry, do not recall the exact brand of oil, but it was supposedly a premium "synthetic"). Needless to say, a too-thick oil is just as bad as a too-thin oil when it comes to lubrication systems -- a too-thick oil simply will not flow well enough to make it to the places it is needed. In short, while 30 years ago your statement about the characteristics of multi-grade oil would have been true, today things are much more complicated. Cheaper oils are still starting with a thin oil and adding VI's to keep it from thinning as much, but more expensive oils are using a variety of techniques.

[gmay131313]

Over the years off and on I've read lots of articles on oil, especially what to and not to use in a motorcycle, the postings lately have been as good and pretty much agree with all I've read from the "expert" articles in various mags and tech papers. What it all boiled down to for me though is buy a good quality oil, whether it's Mobil, Motul, Bel-Ray..whatever and see how it works for you, does it shift smooth, dos it clunk when you engage 1st, does it seem to use more oil then the last brand you tried, I installed a water temp gauge in the sump of my KZ and there was a noticeable difference in oil temp using different brands under the same conditions, take all the great info you read here and elsewhere but for sure use you and build you own knowledge base and use what you are comfortable with. Probably like most I put between 7 and 9k a year on my KLR which to me equals 2 or 3 oil changes, to me oil is not the place to price cut. In most of my vechiles over the last frw years I've used Mobil synthetic with no complaints except of course the price, my present 4 wheel ride is a 4 cyl. suv has I think about 250k, gets an oil change every 7500 and goes down about 1/2 a litre between changes is as quiet as it was when it was new so I definitely consider the extra money on oil well spent. I have a older 200KDX which probably has 25000 + kilometers on it, it's had fresh rings, pistons and wrist pins when I thought it needed it, probably 3 pistons and 6 sets of rings. When I put the last set of rings in it the coating on the bore looked excellent and all of the removed pistons were well within service limits. I've never used anything but Bel-Ray 2 stroke oil in it since I bought it new. On my KLR, o6 that I bought last spring with 3000 km's on it I've used nothing but 10-40 Kawasaki branded full synthetic, cost wise pretty much the same as Mobil, I change the oil between 3 and 3500 km's and so far I'm happy with how the bike runs with it in it, I've seen no wear or marking on the cam bearings and using the recommended 2.5 litres which puts the oil level slightly above the top of my sight glass at the oil change the level has just dropped to the very top of the sight glass. My point with all of this is don't be cheap with oil thinking that you're saving money, take advantage of all of the knowledge here and wherever else you can find it but just as importantly use you own brain and try to sense if a given oil seems to make your bike run happier, look for wear or deposits when you service the valves, but be comfortable with your choice because to me at least I have to find a product that I'm happy with and that I have confidence with. Have a great weekend and hopefully the rain that is here now is gone by tomorrow....Greg

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "E.L. Green" wrote: > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Bill Watson wrote: > > MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS DO NOT THICKEN AS THEY GET WARMER. ALL OILS THIN AS > THEY GET WARM, THE MULTI-VISCOSITY OILS JUST DON'T THIN AS QUICKLY. > > > > Wasn't yelling Whew! Caps off. Anyway, a 10 weight oil is a certain viscosity when > cold (as you pointed out) and if heated, gets thinner (also as you pointed out). A 30 > weight oil, when cold, is a higher viscosity than a 10 when cold, but when the 30 is heated, > it too gets thinner. A lot. > ... > > So a 10-30W oil is really a base stock of 10 wt, with viscosity improvers (VI) added to > have it not thin as quickly with temperature. > > That is not exactly true. A 10W-30 oil may also be a 30w oil with pour point depressants > or de-paraffinized to reduce or eliminate the amount of waxes that cause oil to become > thicker at lower temperatures. Or a 20w oil with pour-point depressants and viscosity > improvers. Etc. The important thing is that its flow characteristics at the specified lower > temperature are similar to that of a 10-weight "straight" oil and its flow characteristics at > the specified higher temperature are similar to that of a 30- weight "straight oil". This has > some relationship to protective ability or composition of the oil, but it is by no means a > linear relationship. A 10w-30 oil created by removing paraffins and aromatics from a 30- > weight oil so that it does not thicken as much at lower temperatures (or simply never > having any to begin with, such as a full synthetic) will have more oil molecules per liter > and thus likely better lubricating and protective capabilities than a 10w-30 created by > starting with a 10-weight oil and adding viscosity improvers, as well as being less > succeptible to shearing reducing its viscosity since oil molecules tend to be tougher than > the viscosity-improver molecules typically used. > > Because pour point depressants can be sheared also, the viscosity of oils that depend > upon pour point depressants can actually *rise* as the PPD's are sheared. I have seen oil > analysis where this has happened, albeit the oil analysis in question was for a long-term > test in a motor pool (sorry, do not recall the exact brand of oil, but it was supposedly a > premium "synthetic"). Needless to say, a too-thick oil is just as bad as a too-thin oil when > it comes to lubrication systems -- a too-thick oil simply will not flow well enough to > make it to the places it is needed. > > In short, while 30 years ago your statement about the characteristics of multi-grade oil > would have been true, today things are much more complicated. Cheaper oils are still > starting with a thin oil and adding VI's to keep it from thinning as much, but more > expensive oils are using a variety of techniques. >

[Norm Keller]

I don't think the lighter (cold) viscosity of the 10W30 oil was the factor which caused increased oil consumption over the straight 30 because the time interval in which the oils were cold was very short. I think that the oil consumption was due to the fact that the 10W30 was much thinner than the straight 30 oil when at operating temperature. I hope that no one misunderstood the fact that all oils get thinner when heated got past anyone. Just in case, it can't hurt to mention it again. It would be better to write a series of articles, proof them and have them validated by technically astute critics rather than writing bits from time to time but can't find the energy to do it at this time. Maybe when I retire..... Going to look at a couple of ST1100's this weekend. Maybe I'll be jumping ship. Probably not as good off road even if it isn't much heavier than the KLR. Ocean tankers aren't much heavier than the KLR....(VBG) Norm You posted: So to answer your question about your friend with a truck that burned more oil when he ran 10-30W when compared to straight 30W, I would argue that it is a simple case of the fact that when cold, the 10-30W was of course thinner than a straight 30 wt, and given the piston-to-wall clearances and ring condition with his engine at that stage, it was easier to drink the 10 wt rather than a 30 wt ? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Blake Sobiloff]

On Aug 24, 2007, at 2:40 PM, Norm Keller wrote:

> It would be better to write a series of articles, proof them and > have them validated by technically astute critics rather than > writing bits from time to time but can't find the energy to do it > at this time. Maybe when I retire.....

A rather prominent doctor in Florida whose specialty is the flow of blood in the human body put together a very interesting series of articles on motor oil. Check out http://63.240.161.99/motoroil/ -- Blake Sobiloff http://www.sobiloff.com/> San Jose, CA (USA)

[Norm Keller]

A friend who dropped by today has a set of ammo boxes mounted. He made up the racks out of aluminium flat bar one Saturday. It's a good looking solid set-up and I have to say I might be tempted to go that way in future rather than spend over a grand on mine. Painting/powder coating would be a nice option or maybe Rhino Coating. HIH Norm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]