[dsn_klr650] nklr - klr riders who have served or are servi

[Billy Cupit]

I hesitate to offer my opinion without solid scientific proof on this subject, BUT... Counter steering and weight shift are not things I think about usually, but I know I do them. Riding aggresively, all of that takes care of itself, for me anyway. I do think about countersteering sometimes when I am just riding easy and trying to be smooth through corners. On a long sweeping curve, at a moderate speed and with a steady throttle, I countersteer a slight amount through the entire curve. I don't know what the center of gravity and inertia and all the other stuff is doing, but the bike seems to smooth out. It feels like gliding and that the bike is speeding up somewhat. Whatever it is doing, I feel like the bike is tracking perfectly and I could accelerate as hard as I want through the curve. The bike is doing everything and I am just along for the ride, being a part of the bike. Whatever is happening is a great feeling. Am I crazy? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Easier than ever with enhanced search. Learn more. http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250

[Keith Saltzer]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "scttotis" wrote:

> > Thanks for the experience note. I've done that on a bicycle, and

have

> been pondering that very question, wondering if the gyro forces cut > down on the amount of wheel travel in the direction of countersteer. > That proves it. THe bike tire patches go where you steer it, so on a > bicycle or a motorcycle at speed, if you are going to make a left > turn, and you have run through a paint puddle, the paint on the > pavement will curve off to the right when you introduce the > countersteer to the right and develop the left lean, then the paint > will curve around to the left as you turn the steering wheel to the > left. If thats not right, I dont care anymore! When reading the MC > drivers manual though, the countersteer avoidance they talk about

is

> the big one I think. Countersteer hard so you can quickly develop

lean

> so that you can steer away hard in the direction of the lean.

Keith's

> pothole avoidance technique will be a valuable skill.

Yes, you got it right. And, not only is this steering information great for avoiding potholes, and steering around objects like cages in front of you, it will allow you to enter corners faster. Provided that you are not afraid to lean the bike. Keith Code points out that THE main reason most riders do not go into corners faster than they already do, is that they don't think that they can turn the bike fast enough. Once you know how (countersteer hard and fast with your outside foot pushing down on the peg) you can get into the same corner you've been riding for years faster..........and if you turn the bars faster yet,........you can take that corner with LESS lean angle. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[Keith Saltzer]

Oh, wait a minute! Are you talking about how the WHEEL itself is positioned? Pointing in a direction that looks like it should be taking you away from the inside of the turn? I see that, but never thought about it much. I was referring to the wheels position in relation to the bike it self. In other words the bars/forks/front wheel are turned to the right of center in a right hand turn AFTER you are done countersteering to initiate the right hand turn. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special) --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Saltzer" wrote:

> > To reply to a few of the last posts on this subject: > > A. I do notice that we are agreeing on a lot of things right now, > but I thought the main text of the conversation lately was "can you > steer JUST by leaning?". Keith Code says no, and uses his no BS

bike

> to make his point. I have ridden no handed many times and made my > bike "change direction" slightly, like changing lanes, or steering > into a very long/wide curve, but I do not call that steering. I

call

> that veering. You can't ride twisties like that, and the faster

you

> go, the less angle you are going to be able to introduce to the

bike

> by just leaning. On top of all of that, I have pointed out that

even

> though you are not touching the bars, when you lean over or shift > your weight, the bars do a countersteer movement anyway. So I'm > sticking with the real world situations here and saying that if you > are riding down the road fast enough to have your wheels producing > gyroscopic effect and you want to turn...........you have to > countersteer. Weld your front end straight and then go out and

lean

> the bike while riding. We all know what will happen. > > > B. I was surprised yesterday to read Eric's post saying that in a > turn, that the bikes front wheel is staying pointed to the outside

of

> the turn throughout the whole turn. I find this very hard to > believe. I looked at the pics he posted, and all I saw was the

front

> wheel pointing into the turn. Most of the pics were blantantly

that

> way if you ask me. I was waiting to see what some of you said

about

> them to see if I was missing something. > > Besides that, I have watched my heated grip toggle switch closely > while turning into a turn. It's mounted behind and above the gauge > cluster and it points straight up and in the middle of my sheild.

It

> actually points right at the middle screen bolt like a pointer.

When

> I start to countersteer, I see the switch/bars move, then when I

have

> enough lean for the turn, I see it come back towards the inside of > the turn. Now to be honest, I can't tell you for sure if it is

just

> to the outside of the middle, right IN the middle, or just to the > inside of the middle, but I do see it come back. > > I could see it happening the way Eric describes but only when your > sliding the rear. > > I also just read in Keith Codes book about a guy that he saw that > kept crashing when racing. He goes on to explain that "A pushing > (sliding) front-end "tucks", or turns further towards the INSIDE of > the turn than it normally should". I know that this happens, and > I've done that too. So what gives Eric? I agree with you that > showing me/us all kinds of numbers and gobbleygook would be a waste > of time, but don't you have another example to use to get your

point

> across? I too have spent hundreds of miles on roller blades, and I > don't think that is a good example. I feel my feet not only

leaning,

> but also applying pressure through my heels to the back of both > skates in a turn. If I was going straight, and wanted to turn

left,

> I weight the right skate more than the left, and then shove back > slightly onto the rear of them. I also think that the reason I > lighten the load on the inside skate is because of the fact that

it's

> another set of 4 straight wheels trying to make me go straight. > Comments? > > MrMoose > A8 (Barbie and Ken special) > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Eric L. Green"

> wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, scttotis wrote: > > > THe part about this that I'm having trouble with is the part > about the > > > left handlebar turn as the MC is fully leaned over into a right > turn, > > > through out the right turn. > > > > I posted a link to a picture of race motorcycles at high speeds

on a

> > track. One of said motorcycles indeed had the steering wheel > pointed to > > the right as she went around a left-hand sweeper. > > > > > It does make sense to me if the rear end > > > is sliding out left like it does on dirt tracks, but even in

that

> case > > > the front would be steeeing right of the tangent line of the > curve it > > > is tracing. The reason it doesn't sound right is because you > should > > > have a cornering force, squirm inducing cornering force, to > bring the > > > front end around in the curve. > > > > *WRONG*. Tire scrub is *NOT* the (main) reason why motorcycles > turn. I can > > turn on my rollerblades -- which have *NO* tire scrub (fixed in-

line

> > wheels, people!) -- just by leaning them. The main cause of > motorcycles > > turning is camber thrust, i.e., the desire of a leaned-over wheel > to move > > in a circle about the line through its axle to the ground. The

more

> the > > lean, the more the camber thrust. Thus the more I lean my in-line > skate > > over, the sharper my turn (since the line through the axle > intersects the > > ground closer to my skate, thus meaning a tighter circle). At > extreme lean > > angles, I can make a U-turn in under 2' of total space. Also, the > smaller > > my wheel, the closer that intersection point is to my wheels.

Thus

> when I > > want to do a lot of tight maneuvering I put small wheels on my > > rollerblades, and when I want to do a lot of high-speed work, I

put

> big > > wheels on my rollerblades (because they're more stable -- a given > amount > > of lean has less effective thrust -- thus I'm less likely to

wobble

> at > > high speeds). > > > > Thus why that race motorcycle could be steering sharply to the

left

> > despite her front wheel pointing to the right -- her tiny little > 16" front > > wheel generates a *LOT* of camber thrust (since the line through

the

> > leaned-over front axle hits the pavement pretty close to her

front

> wheel), > > meaning that if that was not offset by some tire scrub pointing

the

> > opposite way, she'd spin out onto the infield. The reason she

has

> to lean > > over that far in the first place is because otherwise the bike

would

> > topple over to the outside of the turn because of inertia (just

as,

> when > > you make a sharp left hand turn in a car, you are flung to the > right side > > of the car). Basically that sharp rightward force must be

countered

> by > > leaning to the left so that the force instead goes down the > centerline of > > the motorcycle -- or by shifting your body to the left so that

you

> can > > make the turn with slightly less lean (since more of your body is > on the > > left to offset that rightward thrust), which is what "real"

racers

> try to > > do because that minimizes the tire scrub (rightward turn of the > wheel) > > and thus maximizes speed through the corner. Your body and the

bike

> pretty > > much automatically lock in on the correct scrub and lean angle to > a) keep > > from toppling over to the outside of the curve and b) keep from > falling > > off the inside of the curve. > > > > > We're going to get to the bottom of > > > this sooner or later. > > > > I've already posted links to articles describing the physics of > motorcyles > > turning, and tried to explain what they said in layman's terms.

See

> my > > older articles. What do you want me to do, post force vector > equations?! > > I'll do it if you want, I'll even go out to my KLR and measure

exact

> > measurements so I can plug the numbers into the equations and

show

> you > > exactly what forces are being generated in what directions, but I > warn > > you, unless you remember your high school trigonometry and

Physics,

> it > > will look like so much gobbledygook to you! > > > > It's a lot easier to remember this: Push on the handlebar on the > side you > > want to turn. That's it. The faster your initial push, the

tighter

> you > > turn. > > > > Whether you need to hold the bar there or not depends on your

bike's

> > geometry, tires, etc... Most bikes at high speed will have more > camber > > thrust than can be handled at a given lean angle (as required for > > balancing -- remember, have to offset that outward thrust caused

by

> > inertia!) and will require you to keep pushing (countersteering)

in

> order > > to provide enough scrub to offset the camber thrust. This is how > most > > bikes are set up, because this keeps the bike inherently stable -- > if you > > let loose the bars, the steering geometry (trail) pulls the wheel > back > > straight, gyroscopic procession straightens the bike, and you

quit

> leaning > > and quit cornering and end up going straight. > > > > Thus while it doesn't make sense that your tire is pointing the > opposite > > way from the way you're turning, that's what's happening at high > speeds -- > > because the camber thrust provided by your wheel at a given lean > angle > > required to offset outside inertia is more than what is required

to

> take a > > corner at that lean angle, thus some of that thrust to the inside > of the > > corner must by offset by scrub to the outside of the corner. This > is how > > it's supposed to work, because this is what keeps bikes stable at > high > > speeds, because it keeps them self-straightening. > > > > An example: Ride in a crosswind from the left. You will find that > you are > > leaning left into the wind (so that its force goes down the > centerline of > > the bike to the wheels to the ground), and your front wheel is > actually > > pointed RIGHT as you're going straight! > > > > -E

[Keith Saltzer]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Billy Cupit wrote:

> > I hesitate to offer my opinion without solid > scientific proof on this subject, BUT... > > Counter steering and weight shift are not things I > think about usually, but I know I do them.

I would have to say that everybody does them. It's the only way the bike will turn. But how WELL do you do them. That's the big difference.

> Riding > aggresively, all of that takes care of itself, for me > anyway.

Sorry, that's not happening. Anything that a rider tries to overcome by "going faster" will only show it's negative effects even more. Many have tried that, including me.

> I do think about countersteering sometimes > when I am just riding easy and trying to be smooth > through corners. On a long sweeping curve, at a > moderate speed and with a steady throttle, I > countersteer a slight amount through the entire curve.

I do too with certain tires profiles. My Avon Gripsters allow me to lean over and leave the bars completely alone........except for twisting the throttle open more.

> I don't know what the center of gravity and inertia > and all the other stuff is doing, but the bike seems > to smooth out. It feels like gliding and that the > bike is speeding up somewhat. Whatever it is doing, I > feel like the bike is tracking perfectly and I could > accelerate as hard as I want through the curve.

Sounds great! But do you know what to do if any one of a thousand different things happens while your in that "zone"? You have to know that you know how a bike works to have the best chance of survival.

> The > bike is doing everything and I am just along for the > ride, being a part of the bike.

The bike is doing whatever YOU make it do.

> Whatever is happening it > is a great feeling. Am I crazy?

Heck no. I'm sure we've all been there. You gotta love it. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[Billy Cupit]

hello Mr. Moose, When riding aggressively and seemingly the weight transfer and countersteering take care of themselves, I mean that I don't consciously think about it. I have ridden a few miles on a motorcycle and have some metal in my leg from it, so ok, maybe some of it has been learned the hard way. But, if I had to think about what I needed to do and which way to swerve before doing it, I would surely not be here right now. It will happen to everybody sooner or later and there is nothing better than to have practiced the manuever on some quiet back road by slaloming between the lines in the center of the road or even dodging shadows. One day, a dog, deer, or a car will come out of nowhere into your path. I hope that when it happens to me the next time, I can pull over to the side of the road a hundred yards farther down and say "Holy Shit!!! How did I miss that?" And I will actually know how I avoided it, but its not by thinking at the time. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-12-14 10:12:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, k.saltzer@... writes:

> > > I believe that when I counter steer to the left, to turn right, I am > turning the bars, which causes the forks above the front axle to > twist the very stable gyroscopic loaded front wheel to turn to the > left, making it momentarily unstable, (as noticed when you go over a > bump while putting a countersteering moment into the bars) and causes > it to move to the left also, which is then followed by the rear tire, > and then the bike begins to lean over and turn to the right. I start > off my turns by pushing down on my left footpet to gain a very stable > tripod position which allows me to use more strength to turn the bars > quicker, and it gives me a firmly planted place to hold my body mass > right where it was when I was going straight. > >

I good way to demonstrate those gyroscopic forces is to do a classic pancake jump. As the bike runs up the face of the jump you countersteer it into a turn and as the bike leaves the earth you keep applying the countersteer the gyroscopes pull you into a lean with the rear tire swinging higher than the front (at least that is what it feel like as I've only ever seen Guy Cooper really achieve a nose down attitude) and as you spot your landing you push the high bar to straighten the bike upright. A pancake jump is very much like hitting a sharp high banked turn without the banking. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Keith Saltzer]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Billy Cupit wrote:

> > hello Mr. Moose, > > When riding aggressively and seemingly the weight > transfer and countersteering take care of themselves, > I mean that I don't consciously think about it. I > have ridden a few miles on a motorcycle and have some > metal in my leg from it, so ok, maybe some of it has > been learned the hard way. But, if I had to think > about what I needed to do and which way to swerve > before doing it, I would surely not be here right now. > It will happen to everybody sooner or later and > there is nothing better than to have practiced the > manuever on some quiet back road by slaloming between > the lines in the center of the road or even dodging > shadows. One day, a dog, deer, or a car will come out > of nowhere into your path. I hope that when it > happens to me the next time, I can pull over to the > side of the road a hundred yards farther down and say > "Holy Shit!!! How did I miss that?" And I will > actually know how I avoided it, but its not by > thinking at the time.

Got it. I have been there and done that (few times now) and agree. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-12-14 3:30:34 PM Pacific Standard Time, s2mumford@... writes:

> > If target fixation was real, my KLR would have crashed into several > impressive sets of boobs. > Maybe I sould re-test it... Hmm. > > Thanks > CA Stu >

Stu, Target fixation is when you focus on where you don't want the bike to go and I think what you were doing was admiring the scenery. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-12-14 3:36:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, k.saltze r@... writes:

> > B. I was surprised yesterday to read Eric's post saying that in a > turn, that the bikes front wheel is staying pointed to the outside of > the turn throughout the whole turn. I find this very hard to > believe. I looked at the pics he posted, and all I saw was the front > wheel pointing into the turn. Most of the pics were blantantly that > way if you ask me. I was waiting to see what some of you said about > them to see if I was missing something. > >

First off the counter steer movement is ever so slight. I buddy of mine and I tried to set up a transducer to measure the deflection of the triple tree from dead ahead, recording the readout on a portable PC and found we had to set our full scale range to just a couple of degrees to have the resolution to make our measurements. We also discovered that during the turn the rider made a lot of subtle adjustments, pushing on the inside bar to tighten the arc and pushing on the outside bar to straighten out or hold a constant arc - you don't really turn into the turn as much as countersteer out of the turn to maintain an arc. Also learned that the slower you went the more deflection that was required to initiate the turn, which leads me to believe that the amount of countersteering movement required to start a turn is inversely proportional to the amount of centrifugal force generated by the front wheel. By understanding how our biomechanics work you can understand why these movements feel more than they are. If you are doing this instinctively, as you push on one bar you let off the other. This creates the false sensory perception that your hands are moving farther than they actually do. You need to recalibrate your perceptions so you read these inputs for being mostly a weight shift. Riding a motorcycle is mostly a skill of mastering your balance (and the bike's) while it is in motion. You can practice skills all day long and not make any progress because the problem is you need to practice interpreting what your sense of balance is telling you about what is happening. Its not just what you inner ear is telling you, it also pressure against your skin (primarily hands and feet) and the feedback from your muscles contracting/relaxing ad the pressure sensors in your joints that make up your sense of balance. As a kid you were really in tune with these senses as you were learning how to coordinate your body. As you grew older these sensory messages receded into the background noise. As an adult, after you have mastered the basic skills, you need to pull this sensory perception back out of the background noise and into your conscious thought. It may sound corny, but when I'm out on my DRZ400 railing some single track, I get into a zone where the force is with me. I'm focused on my senses, including my vision scanning the trail ahead and the force takes of sorting out how to stay upright. As far as turing the bars in the direction of your turn once it has started, if pushing on the right bar starts a left turn, pushing on the left bar will start a right turn, even if you are in a left turn. Physics dictate that is what the bike is doing. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[matteeanne@yahoo.com]

Look, turn, dont turn, enough of the freekin turning already, move on! (while turning or not) Knee's no knee's standing sitting, hands free, but freekin turn! Sheesh! --- Alan L Henderson wrote:

> > scttotis wrote: > > > > > I believe that Pete, but I am starting to think > the mechanisms in play > > are different maybe(till I perform the rotating > bicycle tire on the > > wheeled chair test). Clearly when you are on a > bicycle and > > countersteer, gravity and balance is the big > factor. Maybe on the MC > > at speed it is still the big factor, but maybe the > steering of the > > front wheel gyro rotates the bike over into the > lean without as much > > tire patch offtracking from underneath the rider. > It would be great to > > see some straight down helicopter shots of road > racers to see how much > > the tires move right as the rider leans left. > > I acknowledge gyroscopic forces have a part in the > whole process but I > find it hard to believe that my front wheel could > apply enough torque to > flop my bikes 400lbs and my 400lbs over into a lean. > If the force were > that strong wouldn't it wrench the bike away from my > grasp, and > considerable mass, leaving me pretty much upright > holding onto nothing. > > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: > www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >

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