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Russell Scott
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Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 6:16 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by Russell Scott » Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:47 pm

Ties right in. Demanding Dictatorship in Katrina's Wake? By Joe Mariani September 9, 2005 Probably the most astonishing result of Hurricane Katrina so far has been the overall reaction of the Left. I don't mean the whining criticisms or the politicizing of tragedy for political purposes, however -- those Liberal reactions are par for the course in any situation. Former NYC Mayor Ed Koch (web site) was at his most honest when he said that "it's fair game for the Democrats to attack the president at this time. They want to win the House next year." What amazes me is that the same people who have spent four years accusing President Bush of shredding the Constitution and mounting a military coup in America seem to be angry with him... because he didn't shred the Constitution and mount a military coup. The most persistent Liberal and Democrat attacks (web site) concerning the aftermath of Katrina have been that "the government" (by which they mean the federal government) was too slow to take charge of the situation. According to the critics, Bush should have immediately sent the US military into New Orleans to keep order, taken personal command of the National Guard and directed relief efforts on the scene from the moment the levee gave way. FEMA should have assumed direct control over all police, fire crews, EMTs and other first responders. In other words, Liberals seem to feel that the rights and responsibilities of state and local governments can and should be taken away by the federal government in emergency situations. But that's exactly what the Constitution was designed to prevent. More than anything else, the Founders feared an all-powerful central government dictating to the states and citizens. The United States is supposed to be a federal (web site) republic, not a centralised totalitarian government. The President has no authority to command state militia (or the modern substitute, National Guard units) without permission of the state governor to whom they report. He cannot order the evacuation of a city. He cannot simply assume command over the local and state governments. He certainly cannot send the US military to take control of a city or state except in case of insurrection. And the last thing the looters in New Orleans were doing was setting up their own secessionist government. "Whoever, except in cases and under circumstances expressly authorized by the Constitution or Act of Congress, willfully uses any part of the Army or Air Force as a posse comitatus or otherwise to execute the laws shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than two years, or both." - US Code, Title 18, Section 1385 (web site) The Posse Comitatas Act of 1878 (web site) forbids the President from using the US military to enforce the law without an Act of Congress. Posse comitatus, or "all possible force," refers to the power of a sheriff to call upon every able-bodied man in his county to help apprehend a criminal. (The things you learn from watching old Westerns...) The President can not similarly use "all possible force" to enforce the law, because doing so would be equivalent to declaring martial law in the United States. Exceptions to the law, aside from suppressing insurrections, include assisting drug enforcement agencies or during emergencies involving nuclear, chemical or biological weapons. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), there is no exception for a local or state government failing to respond properly to a crisis. State and local officials failed to evacuate the citizens, declined to quell the looting and other crimes being committed, and even refused permission for the Red Cross to bring food and water to the people packed into the Superdome and Convention Center. The Red Cross explains on their web site (web site) that "The state Homeland Security Department had requested... that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans following the hurricane. Our presence would keep people from evacuating and encourage others to come into the city." Without the governor's permission to act, the federal government was effectively hamstrung. Louisiana Governor Kathy Blanco could have requested federal help, but would not sign the authorization to allow it, even after the situation had descended into total chaos. "Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans," the Washington Post reported. (web site)" Target="top">(web site) "The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law." Governor Blanco decided to maintain final authority over the situation in New Orleans. With that authority comes responsibility for the results -- good or bad. Every person who complains because the federal government did not take control of the New Orleans situation -- despite the governor's refusal to give permission -- is advocating a far more powerful federal government than we should ever want. The burden of response to local disasters rests on local elected officials while they choose to retain their authority. The federal government cannot intervene unless specifically requested to do so. To suggest otherwise is to invite a military dictatorship. -----Original Message----- From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Jim Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:23 PM To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: NKLR Katrina response Erik, Perhaps because of your proximity to this tragedy, your reasoning is clouded by emotion. Step back and look at this again in light of your own words.
> them, I don't give a flying flip about legal BS.
First understand we are a nation of laws and whether you give a "flying flip" about them makes no difference. The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send a timely request for specific aid, that is a fact. FEMA had the resources,
> and refused to use them for FOUR DAYS because, get this, THE EFFIN' > But this is all the victim's fault because, well, the victims, not FEMA.
I listened to a NO scanner channel on Tuesday evening and heard a trucker loaded (truck and trailer) with MREs ask the local NO dispatch for directions to the superdome THREE times in the course of an hour. He repeated each time his cargo and requested directions to the SD and for an escort. Three times the gal on the radio said "OK just a minute" and never answered back again. That disgusted me, and now I understand the city officials knowingly did not move food and water to the SD in order to discourage any more refugees moving on site as they were already overwhelmed. If you want to get angy over missmanagment and needless suffering include this also.
> That's wrong. That's just so wrong. So wrong in so many ways. > Baton Rouge until "a proper request on the proper form has been > submitted". My GOD, this is the LOCALS' fault?
Local leaders, YES. If citizens expect FEMA to be a first responder to terrorist attacks or other local emergencies (earthquakes, forest fires, volcanoes), they will be disappointed. The federal government's role is to offer aid upon request, see above.
> I do agree with you on one thing: Governor Kathleen Blanco bears
primary responsibility for all this. We agree on this. History will prove her incompetent during this disaster.
>But as far as the > local guys go? In my book, they are ALL heros. They didn't abandon the > ship. They were right there, fighting with everything they had, doing > their best to care for their people.
If you are refering to the local law enforcment that did not resign and walk off I would agree they payed it forward for sure. But if you are trying to include local pols in this then we disagree. Louisiana has a history of poor management and misuse of FEMA funds, including a suspected conspiracy by three top officials at the Louisiana Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness involving misspent funds for flood-prone homes. In March, FEMA demanded that Louisiana repay $30.4 million in flood and hazard mitigation grants awarded to 23 parishes between 1997 and 2002. Last year, a federal grand jury in Shreveport indicted three top officials in the New Orleans agency on charges of obstructing an investigation into how federal money was spent to buy flood-prone homes. I also hope you do not include the mayor because if so you are plain wrong on this also. The mayor of New Orleans is coming under increasing fire for exacerbating the disaster by not properly implementing his city's emergency-management plan. Have you read the plan Eric? The New Orleans contingency plan is still posted on the city's Web site, and states: "The safe evacuation of threatened populations is one of the principle [sic] reasons for developing a Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan." But the plan was apparently ignored. Why was it not followed? Does that help the people? Simple answer, no, while he cried people died and the 10,000 people expected to have died is less the number of people who could have been removed before the storm with the public busses that now sit underwater, that is a fact, no emotion. Instead of evacuating the people, the mayor ordered the refugees to the Superdome and Convention Center without adequate security and no provisions for food, water and sanitary conditions. As a result people died, and there was even rape committed, in these facilities. Mayor Nagin failed in his responsibility to provide public safety and to manage the orderly evacuation of the citizens of New Orleans. Now he wants to blame Gov. Blanco and the Federal Emergency Management Agency. In an emergency the first requirement is for the city's emergency center to be linked to the state emergency operations center. This was not done. One other fact is that people refuse even now to be evacuated and they refused to leave when told to evacuate. If you are going to tell me they had no way out then reread the previous paragraph. I heard someone remark in previous storms, when folks had refused to leave, that officials handed out marking pens and requested that they write their social security # on there body for positive ID. Perhaps that would have been enough for some to rethink their position of "riding it out". I hope when all the information is in that you Eric and others tangled up in this emotional tragedy can rationally examine the where it all went wrong despite years of warnings and exhaustive contingency plans. --Jim (sitting around the campfire talking) A-15 Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Yahoo! Groups Links

Jim
Posts: 1560
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:15 am

nklr katrina response

Post by Jim » Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:53 pm

I have to stand up to this carp. Sorry fellow motorcycle men, and women but I can't read this drivel and not respond. Eric is sounding a lot like that rapper Kanye West on the NBC telethone for Katrina relief, too bad. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/03/AR2005090300165.html> WEST: "We already realize a lot of people that could help are at war right now, fighting another way -- and they've given them permission to go down and shoot us!" "George Bush doesn't care about black people!" Eric you, and many others are fomenting racial hatred among fellow Americans and inciting violence by spewing lies about our government toward folks who won't even attempt to validate your careless words. It appears to me your intention is to foster an "insurgancey" here at home and that has to stop, now. Reread your own words and get a firm grip on reality before you go off again and type something you will regret. --Jim A-15
> As far as I'm concerned, the only > thing our federal government is good at is killing its own people,
and the
> whole bloody thing just needs to be abolished and replaced with the > government we had in 1906, > -E

jokerloco9@aol.com
Posts: 327
Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 1:24 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by jokerloco9@aol.com » Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:55 pm

Thanks for the info. Hopefully in time people will realize the B.S. being reported on the news blaming Bush for everything. I'm surprised they don't blame the hurricane on him. The failure rests solely with the local officials, and why they did not prepare for what they knew about for 100 years, and saw was possible just 6 months ago. (the other hurricanes in Florida). Jeff [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jim
Posts: 1560
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:15 am

nklr katrina response

Post by Jim » Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:59 pm

ESP, dude!
> You said it not me. > > :^) > > Conall > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, a14@a... wrote: > > Yea, and they knew all about what was going to happen on 9/11/01 but > allowed it in order to get support from the American public to invade > the middle east all because Bush wants the oil. > >

ron criswell
Posts: 1118
Joined: Fri Apr 07, 2000 5:09 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by ron criswell » Fri Sep 09, 2005 9:29 am

Robert Kennedy Jr. in all his wisdom is blaming Bush for Katrina by not signing the Kyoto treaty. Since he doesn't have to worry about a real job he doesn't have to worry about his plant being closed because of that treaty. He is not his father. Criswell
On Thursday, September 8, 2005, at 09:55 PM, jokerloco9@... wrote: > > Thanks for the info. Hopefully in time people will realize the B.S. > being > reported on the news blaming Bush for everything. I'm surprised they > don't > blame the hurricane on him. The failure rests solely with the local > officials, > and why they did not prepare for what they knew about for 100 years, > and saw > was possible just 6 months ago. (the other hurricanes in Florida). > > Jeff > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Archive Quicksearch at: > http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > >

Erik
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:14 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by Erik » Fri Sep 09, 2005 12:57 pm

> The federal government does not have the authority to intervene in a > state emergency without the request of a governor. President Bush > declared an emergency prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans, so the > only action needed for federal assistance was for Gov. Blanco to > request the specific type of assistance she needed. She failed to send > a timely request for specific aid, that is a fact.
It is also a fact that The National Response Plan makes it crystal clear that the President and FEMA are responsible for pro-actively initiating rescue and relief efforts in an emergency - once the president declared it a national emergency, it was HIS responsibility to to take action. Not stay on vacation and go shopping and play the guitar. The governor didn't do a good job, but Bush and his FEMA appointee REALLY dropped the ball, and I wish for once "the buck stops here" would return and SOMEONE in the administration would take responsibility for ANYTHING. erik (the other one, in the other LA)

Jim
Posts: 1560
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2001 11:15 am

nklr katrina response

Post by Jim » Fri Sep 09, 2005 2:26 pm

Sorry other Erik this rational is also sideways. (Quoted from article in the NYT, see below) To seize control of the mission, Mr. Bush would have had to invoke the Insurrection Act, which allows the president in times of unrest to command active-duty forces into the states to perform law enforcement duties. But decision makers in Washington felt certain that Ms. Blanco would have resisted surrendering control, as Bush administration officials believe would have been required to deploy active-duty combat forces before law and order had been re-established. While combat troops can conduct relief missions without the legal authority of the Insurrection Act, Pentagon and military officials say that no active-duty forces could have been sent into the chaos of New Orleans on Wednesday or Thursday without confronting law-and-order challenges. But just as important to the administration were worries about the message that would have been sent by a president ousting a Southern governor of another party from command of her National Guard, according to administration, Pentagon and Justice Department officials. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/09/national/nationalspecial/09military.html?ei=5090&en=aa642b8c89c27c01&ex=1283918400&adxnnl=1&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss&adxnnlx=1126238795-dGCl9WlaN8lbkCHBy9hw2w&pagewanted=print> Why do I get the idea that if in fact Bush did invoke the Insurrection Act, you and others of your cult, would be branding him a dictator and accuse his administration of twisting the Consititution their evil master plan? I would recommend you seek personal responsibility long before you rely on a fearless leader to come to your rescue. --Jim (throwing another stick on the campfire) A-15
> It is also a fact that The National Response Plan makes it crystal
clear
> that the President and FEMA are responsible for pro-actively initiating > rescue and relief efforts in an emergency - once the president
declared it
> a national emergency, it was HIS responsibility to to take action. Not > stay on vacation and go shopping and play the guitar. > > The governor didn't do a good job, but Bush and his FEMA appointee
REALLY
> dropped the ball, and I wish for once "the buck stops here" would
return
> and SOMEONE in the administration would take responsibility for
ANYTHING.
> > erik (the other one, in the other LA)

Erik
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:14 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by Erik » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:12 pm

> Why do I get the idea that if in fact Bush did invoke the Insurrection > Act, you and others of your cult, would be branding him a dictator and > accuse his administration of twisting the Consititution their evil > master plan?
I'm honestly not at all qualified to debate the legalities here - and I'm guessing neither are you (nor any of us). However, I remained convinced that the President really didn't show any concern for the problem, and I am DISGUSTED by the attitude of "let's not play the blame game. it was their fault!". He absolutely should not have continued his vacation and photo ops as this was happening. But honestly I have the biggest problem with the FEMA director was caught with his pants around his ankles. He didn't even say "hey, we should start finding people to help" until AFTER the hurricane hit. And Bush gave him that job, and said he was doing a great job - along with saying "I don't think anyone expected the levees to break", which is just hogwash. (Congress also approved Brown, so there's blame to go around, but I've also seen the fit thrown whenever anyone questions anyone Bush wants to appoint, sooooo....) And, um, what cult am I in exactly? I'm definiely a KLR cult member, but if you think I'm a Democrat you're way off base. I saw someone say (to someone else) that it's a good thing Clinton isn't in charge, because then we'd have no one to blame. I'm really bothered by this attitude - I think Clinton did PLENTY wrong (Policywise, not just the silliness he's hated for by the Right) - do you think Bush has done anything wrong? If not, you pots might want to watch who you're calling black. erik

Mike Frey
Posts: 833
Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 10:53 am

nklr katrina response

Post by Mike Frey » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:28 pm

> "I don't think anyone expected the levees to break" >
Does anyone have a link to a site that tells us that Bush actually said that?

Erik
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Apr 16, 2015 10:14 pm

nklr katrina response

Post by Erik » Fri Sep 09, 2005 3:38 pm

> >> "I don't think anyone expected the levees to break" >> > Does anyone have a link to a site that tells us that Bush actually said > that?
He said it to Diane Sawyer on Good Morning America at 7:05am EST on 9/1. I saw video of it on The Daily Show, and the clip containing it is available here mms://a386.v99506.c9950.g.vm.akamaistream.net/7/386/9950/v001/comedystor.download.akamai.com/9951/com/dailyshow/jon/jon_10111.wmv shorter url: http://tinyurl.com/9ht5a Just FYI, none of this stuff was news to me when I say the Daily Show clip. I do happen to rather agree with Jon in this clip, but you probably couldn't guessed that ;) erik

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