[dsn_klr650] nklr - klr riders who have served or are servi

[klr250not]

So far I havent found the picture I remember of a very distinct countersteer to the left in a high-speed right hand turn. Most racing pictures dont show any obvious countersteering, so it must be a temporary adjustment when it happens. I'll keep looking for the picture I have in mind.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "scttotis" wrote: > > THe part about this that I'm having trouble with is the part about the > left handlebar turn as the MC is fully leaned over into a right turn, > through out the right turn. It does make sense to me if the rear end > is sliding out left like it does on dirt tracks, but even in that case > the front would be steeeing right of the tangent line of the curve it > is tracing. The reason it doesn't sound right is because you should > have a cornering force, squirm inducing cornering force, to bring the > front end around in the curve. We're going to get to the bottom of > this sooner or later. > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "klr250not" wrote: > > > > I wondered about this countersteering business in the MSF course. > > They briefly mentioned it, as I recall, but said it was more for > > racers than beginners. I detect a little disagreement in the thread > > as to what countersteering really is. Its different than counter > > weighting--which we did practice in the MSF. In counterweighting > > drills we rode in tight figure 8s at a crawl, turning the front tire > > in the direction of the turn, obviously, but shifting ones > > bodyweight away from the lean to keep the bike from falling over. > > > > Heres my definition of countersteering as opposed to > > counterweighting described above: > > > > Countersteering is turning the front wheel in the opposite direction > > of the turn and the lean. You'll see sportbike racers doing this as > > they round curves as high speed. In a right turn, for example, the > > rider'll be leaned over so far to the right that their right knee > > will be skimming the pavement. At the same time, the front tire > > will be pointed maybe 20 degrees to the left as it would be if > > making a left turn at very low speed. Soon as I relocate some of > > the pictures Ive seen of this, I'll post a link. > > > > By the way, I'm not convinced countersteering works at lower speeds > > but I might try it ever so slightly at 15-20 mph to see what happens. > > > > > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Alan L Henderson > > wrote: > > > Lee Dodge wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Alan Henderson's earlier post illustrated a avoidance > > > > technique that is an excellent example of this > > > > principal. Try it, you can move the wheels over by 10 > > > > and still basically NOT change course. > > > > > > > > > > Actually it was Keith that mentioned it first, I just agreed with > > him. > > > Interesting that we are all starting to agree with each other. > > > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[Eric L. Green]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, scttotis wrote:

> THe part about this that I'm having trouble with is the part about the > left handlebar turn as the MC is fully leaned over into a right turn, > through out the right turn.

I posted a link to a picture of race motorcycles at high speeds on a track. One of said motorcycles indeed had the steering wheel pointed to the right as she went around a left-hand sweeper.

> It does make sense to me if the rear end > is sliding out left like it does on dirt tracks, but even in that case > the front would be steeeing right of the tangent line of the curve it > is tracing. The reason it doesn't sound right is because you should > have a cornering force, squirm inducing cornering force, to bring the > front end around in the curve.

*WRONG*. Tire scrub is *NOT* the (main) reason why motorcycles turn. I can turn on my rollerblades -- which have *NO* tire scrub (fixed in-line wheels, people!) -- just by leaning them. The main cause of motorcycles turning is camber thrust, i.e., the desire of a leaned-over wheel to move in a circle about the line through its axle to the ground. The more the lean, the more the camber thrust. Thus the more I lean my in-line skate over, the sharper my turn (since the line through the axle intersects the ground closer to my skate, thus meaning a tighter circle). At extreme lean angles, I can make a U-turn in under 2' of total space. Also, the smaller my wheel, the closer that intersection point is to my wheels. Thus when I want to do a lot of tight maneuvering I put small wheels on my rollerblades, and when I want to do a lot of high-speed work, I put big wheels on my rollerblades (because they're more stable -- a given amount of lean has less effective thrust -- thus I'm less likely to wobble at high speeds). Thus why that race motorcycle could be steering sharply to the left despite her front wheel pointing to the right -- her tiny little 16" front wheel generates a *LOT* of camber thrust (since the line through the leaned-over front axle hits the pavement pretty close to her front wheel), meaning that if that was not offset by some tire scrub pointing the opposite way, she'd spin out onto the infield. The reason she has to lean over that far in the first place is because otherwise the bike would topple over to the outside of the turn because of inertia (just as, when you make a sharp left hand turn in a car, you are flung to the right side of the car). Basically that sharp rightward force must be countered by leaning to the left so that the force instead goes down the centerline of the motorcycle -- or by shifting your body to the left so that you can make the turn with slightly less lean (since more of your body is on the left to offset that rightward thrust), which is what "real" racers try to do because that minimizes the tire scrub (rightward turn of the wheel) and thus maximizes speed through the corner. Your body and the bike pretty much automatically lock in on the correct scrub and lean angle to a) keep from toppling over to the outside of the curve and b) keep from falling off the inside of the curve.

> We're going to get to the bottom of > this sooner or later.

I've already posted links to articles describing the physics of motorcyles turning, and tried to explain what they said in layman's terms. See my older articles. What do you want me to do, post force vector equations?! I'll do it if you want, I'll even go out to my KLR and measure exact measurements so I can plug the numbers into the equations and show you exactly what forces are being generated in what directions, but I warn you, unless you remember your high school trigonometry and Physics, it will look like so much gobbledygook to you! It's a lot easier to remember this: Push on the handlebar on the side you want to turn. That's it. The faster your initial push, the tighter you turn. Whether you need to hold the bar there or not depends on your bike's geometry, tires, etc... Most bikes at high speed will have more camber thrust than can be handled at a given lean angle (as required for balancing -- remember, have to offset that outward thrust caused by inertia!) and will require you to keep pushing (countersteering) in order to provide enough scrub to offset the camber thrust. This is how most bikes are set up, because this keeps the bike inherently stable -- if you let loose the bars, the steering geometry (trail) pulls the wheel back straight, gyroscopic procession straightens the bike, and you quit leaning and quit cornering and end up going straight. Thus while it doesn't make sense that your tire is pointing the opposite way from the way you're turning, that's what's happening at high speeds -- because the camber thrust provided by your wheel at a given lean angle required to offset outside inertia is more than what is required to take a corner at that lean angle, thus some of that thrust to the inside of the corner must by offset by scrub to the outside of the corner. This is how it's supposed to work, because this is what keeps bikes stable at high speeds, because it keeps them self-straightening. An example: Ride in a crosswind from the left. You will find that you are leaning left into the wind (so that its force goes down the centerline of the bike to the wheels to the ground), and your front wheel is actually pointed RIGHT as you're going straight! -E

[Mike Frey]

Imaginary headlines as numerous KLR riders test these physics out in coming days: RASH OF CRASHES, FACTORY DEFECT? ------------------------------------------------- Numerous reports in on loss of control due to mysterious reasons on Kawasaki's model KLR-650 are filtering in to news sources. Across the nation, legions of bikers are running into bushes, ditches, and front yards. "I was just testing something out!" one rider was reported to have shouted as he extricated his motorcycle from a patch of shrubbery. Kawasaki denies any wrongdoing on their part. Film at 11.

[Conall]

We have an remarkable development on the story you first covered Mike, it appears the cause of the accidents was target fixation, a phenomenon not yet covered in great enough detail by the DSN_KLR list. Stay tuned. Conall--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Mike Frey wrote:

> > Imaginary headlines as numerous KLR riders test these physics out

in

> coming days: > > RASH OF CRASHES, FACTORY DEFECT? > ------------------------------------------------- > Numerous reports in on loss of control due to > mysterious reasons on Kawasaki's model > KLR-650 are filtering in to news sources. > Across the nation, legions of bikers are > running into bushes, ditches, and front yards. > "I was just testing something out!" one rider > was reported to have shouted as he extricated > his motorcycle from a patch of shrubbery. > Kawasaki denies any wrongdoing on their part. > > Film at 11.

[Thomas J Komjathy]

It's as simple as "look at the tree, hit the tree."

----- Original Message ----- From: "Conall" To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 14, 2004 5:57 PM Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: countersteering / not turning the bars > > > We have an remarkable development on the story you first covered > Mike, it appears the cause of the accidents was target fixation, a > phenomenon not yet covered in great enough detail by the DSN_KLR list. > Stay tuned. > > Conall--- > > In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Mike Frey wrote: > > > > Imaginary headlines as numerous KLR riders test these physics out > in > > coming days: > > > > RASH OF CRASHES, FACTORY DEFECT? > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Numerous reports in on loss of control due to > > mysterious reasons on Kawasaki's model > > KLR-650 are filtering in to news sources. > > Across the nation, legions of bikers are > > running into bushes, ditches, and front yards. > > "I was just testing something out!" one rider > > was reported to have shouted as he extricated > > his motorcycle from a patch of shrubbery. > > Kawasaki denies any wrongdoing on their part. > > > > Film at 11. > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > >

[Pat (M)]

Oh yea, I can already hear tonite's John Stewart interview: "Let me get this straight. As you appoached the RIGHT turn, you turned the handlebars to the . . . . . . . LEFT?"

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Mike Frey wrote: > > Imaginary headlines as numerous KLR riders test these physics out in > coming days: > > RASH OF CRASHES, FACTORY DEFECT? > ------------------------------------------------- > Numerous reports in on loss of control due to > mysterious reasons on Kawasaki's model > KLR-650 are filtering in to news sources. > Across the nation, legions of bikers are > running into bushes, ditches, and front yards. > "I was just testing something out!" one rider > was reported to have shouted as he extricated > his motorcycle from a patch of shrubbery. > Kawasaki denies any wrongdoing on their part. > > Film at 11.

[Eric L. Green]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, John Kokola wrote:

> --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "klr250not" wrote: > > Countersteering is turning the front wheel in the opposite direction > > of the turn and the lean. You'll see sportbike racers doing this as > > they round curves as high speed. In a right turn, for example, the > > rider'll be leaned over so far to the right that their right knee > > will be skimming the pavement. At the same time, the front tire > > will be pointed maybe 20 degrees to the left as it would be if > > making a left turn at very low speed. > You'll only see this (whether on pavement or on dirt) when the rear tire > is stepping out -- i.e. in a 'loss of traction' situation.

No, you will see it *ANY* time that camber thrust (the desire of the tire to turn in a circle around the point where the line through its front axle hits the ground) at a given lean angle necessary for balance exceeds the amount of thrust needed to maintain the angular velocity desired (whether that is a turn or going straight). Thus it mostly only happens with smaller front wheels (where the line hits the ground fairly close to the tire), and you'll rarely see it happen to a visible extent on the KLR with its big honkin' 21" front wheel unless you're offroad and having a lot of slipping going on. But you can still see this scenario in action on the KLR. It can happen when you're going down the freeway, even, if there happens to be a strong crosswind -- lean over left into the wind (it'll happen automatically due to a combination of gyroscopic procession and the steering geometry of your front fork), and you'll notice your front wheel pointing right, while the bike is leaning left and going straight down the freeway! What's happening is that the scrub produced by the rightward-pointing tire is offsetting the camber thrust produced by the leftward-leaning tire (yes, they're one and the same tire so that the tire goes straight even though it appears that the bike should be turning right! Sport bikes with their tiny front wheels generate a LOT of camber thrust when leaned only slight amounts -- enough camber thrust that at high speeds it would cause the rider to be thrown off the outside of the bike due to inertia unless the rider hit the bar harder than necessary to make the turn in order to lean over farther due to gyroscopic procession such that the outward force gets carried down to the ground through the centerline of the bike. Thus at high speeds the front wheel ends up pointing towards the OUTSIDE of the turn in order to offset the amount of camber thrust generated by a lean necessary to maintain balance at the given speed and corner. Here's a few pictures of race bikes making corners with their wheels pointed "the wrong way" (or at least straight): http://www.flexi-glass.com/Clint_McBain.jpg http://www.motorcycle.com/mo/mcmail/nasb/mcphotos/race1.jpg http://www.bikersweb.co.uk/racing/wsb2002/BRANDS%20HATCH/287wsb_bayliss.jpg Do note that: a) by hanging off the bike to the inside (thus why road racers are hunched on their bikes like defecating chimpanzees, so they can hang off the side as needed), you reduce the amount of lean needed to maintain balance while cornering a given curve, and thus the amount of slip angle needed to produce enough outside scrub offset the inside camber thrust produced by the lean. Ideally for maximum performance you want *no* slip angle (or as little as possible, anyhow), because this minimizes frictional losses. b) The tire and bike geometry should be set up as "neutral" as possible, so that at a given lean angle needed to maintain balance through the most common turns in a course, the curve followed by the tire should be close to what would normally be produced by the conic section through the axle of the wheel (thus less need for using tire scrub to offset camber thrust). In reality, b) conflicts with another desire -- the desire to be able to change direction rapidly -- which calls for using small wheels that produce lots of camber thrust (for rapid directional changes) and minimize the gyroscopic effect that wants the wheel to go straight -- but in current road racing you'll still see neutral handling a good percentage of the time due to the rider's ability to hang off (due to the constipated-chimpanzee riding position), and, at slower speeds, even *negative* slip angles (where the tire is pointing along the direction of travel) when the lean necessary to balance the bike does not provide sufficient camber thrust to make the turn at the desired pace. Needless to say race bikes are quite a bit twitchier than is desirable for stability on the highway! -E

[John Kokola]

I think we're in agreement here. Show me a sportbike cornering at speed where the front tire is *twenty degrees* off-axis to the rear, and I'll show you a sliding sportbike. No? --John Kokola -----Original Message----- From: "Eric L. Green"

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, John Kokola wrote: > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "klr250not" wrote: > > At the same time, the front tire > > will be pointed maybe 20 degrees to the left as it would be if > > making a left turn at very low speed. > You'll only see this (whether on pavement or on dirt) when the rear tire > is stepping out -- i.e. in a 'loss of traction' situation. No, you will see it *ANY* time that camber thrust (the desire of the tire to turn in a circle around the point where the line through its front axle hits the ground) at a given lean angle necessary for balance exceeds the amount of thrust needed to maintain the angular velocity desired (whether that is a turn or going straight).

[CA Stu]

If target fixation was real, my KLR would have crashed into several impressive sets of boobs. Maybe I sould re-test it... Hmm. Thanks CA Stu

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Conall" wrote: > > We have an remarkable development on the story you first covered > Mike, it appears the cause of the accidents was target fixation, a > phenomenon not yet covered in great enough detail by the DSN_KLR list. > Stay tuned. > > Conall--- > > In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Mike Frey wrote: > > > > Imaginary headlines as numerous KLR riders test these physics out > in > > coming days: > > > > RASH OF CRASHES, FACTORY DEFECT? > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Numerous reports in on loss of control due to > > mysterious reasons on Kawasaki's model > > KLR-650 are filtering in to news sources. > > Across the nation, legions of bikers are > > running into bushes, ditches, and front yards. > > "I was just testing something out!" one rider > > was reported to have shouted as he extricated > > his motorcycle from a patch of shrubbery. > > Kawasaki denies any wrongdoing on their part. > > > > Film at 11.

[Keith Saltzer]

To reply to a few of the last posts on this subject: A. I do notice that we are agreeing on a lot of things right now, but I thought the main text of the conversation lately was "can you steer JUST by leaning?". Keith Code says no, and uses his no BS bike to make his point. I have ridden no handed many times and made my bike "change direction" slightly, like changing lanes, or steering into a very long/wide curve, but I do not call that steering. I call that veering. You can't ride twisties like that, and the faster you go, the less angle you are going to be able to introduce to the bike by just leaning. On top of all of that, I have pointed out that even though you are not touching the bars, when you lean over or shift your weight, the bars do a countersteer movement anyway. So I'm sticking with the real world situations here and saying that if you are riding down the road fast enough to have your wheels producing gyroscopic effect and you want to turn...........you have to countersteer. Weld your front end straight and then go out and lean the bike while riding. We all know what will happen. B. I was surprised yesterday to read Eric's post saying that in a turn, that the bikes front wheel is staying pointed to the outside of the turn throughout the whole turn. I find this very hard to believe. I looked at the pics he posted, and all I saw was the front wheel pointing into the turn. Most of the pics were blantantly that way if you ask me. I was waiting to see what some of you said about them to see if I was missing something. Besides that, I have watched my heated grip toggle switch closely while turning into a turn. It's mounted behind and above the gauge cluster and it points straight up and in the middle of my sheild. It actually points right at the middle screen bolt like a pointer. When I start to countersteer, I see the switch/bars move, then when I have enough lean for the turn, I see it come back towards the inside of the turn. Now to be honest, I can't tell you for sure if it is just to the outside of the middle, right IN the middle, or just to the inside of the middle, but I do see it come back. I could see it happening the way Eric describes but only when your sliding the rear. I also just read in Keith Codes book about a guy that he saw that kept crashing when racing. He goes on to explain that "A pushing (sliding) front-end "tucks", or turns further towards the INSIDE of the turn than it normally should". I know that this happens, and I've done that too. So what gives Eric? I agree with you that showing me/us all kinds of numbers and gobbleygook would be a waste of time, but don't you have another example to use to get your point across? I too have spent hundreds of miles on roller blades, and I don't think that is a good example. I feel my feet not only leaning, but also applying pressure through my heels to the back of both skates in a turn. If I was going straight, and wanted to turn left, I weight the right skate more than the left, and then shove back slightly onto the rear of them. I also think that the reason I lighten the load on the inside skate is because of the fact that it's another set of 4 straight wheels trying to make me go straight. Comments? MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special) --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Eric L. Green" wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, scttotis wrote: > > THe part about this that I'm having trouble with is the part

about the

> > left handlebar turn as the MC is fully leaned over into a right

turn,

> > through out the right turn. > > I posted a link to a picture of race motorcycles at high speeds on a > track. One of said motorcycles indeed had the steering wheel

pointed to

> the right as she went around a left-hand sweeper. > > > It does make sense to me if the rear end > > is sliding out left like it does on dirt tracks, but even in that

case

> > the front would be steeeing right of the tangent line of the

curve it

> > is tracing. The reason it doesn't sound right is because you

should

> > have a cornering force, squirm inducing cornering force, to

bring the

> > front end around in the curve. > > *WRONG*. Tire scrub is *NOT* the (main) reason why motorcycles

turn. I can

> turn on my rollerblades -- which have *NO* tire scrub (fixed in-line > wheels, people!) -- just by leaning them. The main cause of

motorcycles

> turning is camber thrust, i.e., the desire of a leaned-over wheel

to move

> in a circle about the line through its axle to the ground. The more

the

> lean, the more the camber thrust. Thus the more I lean my in-line

skate

> over, the sharper my turn (since the line through the axle

intersects the

> ground closer to my skate, thus meaning a tighter circle). At

extreme lean

> angles, I can make a U-turn in under 2' of total space. Also, the

smaller

> my wheel, the closer that intersection point is to my wheels. Thus

when I

> want to do a lot of tight maneuvering I put small wheels on my > rollerblades, and when I want to do a lot of high-speed work, I put

big

> wheels on my rollerblades (because they're more stable -- a given

amount

> of lean has less effective thrust -- thus I'm less likely to wobble

at

> high speeds). > > Thus why that race motorcycle could be steering sharply to the left > despite her front wheel pointing to the right -- her tiny little

16" front

> wheel generates a *LOT* of camber thrust (since the line through the > leaned-over front axle hits the pavement pretty close to her front

wheel),

> meaning that if that was not offset by some tire scrub pointing the > opposite way, she'd spin out onto the infield. The reason she has

to lean

> over that far in the first place is because otherwise the bike would > topple over to the outside of the turn because of inertia (just as,

when

> you make a sharp left hand turn in a car, you are flung to the

right side

> of the car). Basically that sharp rightward force must be countered

by

> leaning to the left so that the force instead goes down the

centerline of

> the motorcycle -- or by shifting your body to the left so that you

can

> make the turn with slightly less lean (since more of your body is

on the

> left to offset that rightward thrust), which is what "real" racers

try to

> do because that minimizes the tire scrub (rightward turn of the

wheel)

> and thus maximizes speed through the corner. Your body and the bike

pretty

> much automatically lock in on the correct scrub and lean angle to

a) keep

> from toppling over to the outside of the curve and b) keep from

falling

> off the inside of the curve. > > > We're going to get to the bottom of > > this sooner or later. > > I've already posted links to articles describing the physics of

motorcyles

> turning, and tried to explain what they said in layman's terms. See

my

> older articles. What do you want me to do, post force vector

equations?!

> I'll do it if you want, I'll even go out to my KLR and measure exact > measurements so I can plug the numbers into the equations and show

you

> exactly what forces are being generated in what directions, but I

warn

> you, unless you remember your high school trigonometry and Physics,

it

> will look like so much gobbledygook to you! > > It's a lot easier to remember this: Push on the handlebar on the

side you

> want to turn. That's it. The faster your initial push, the tighter

you

> turn. > > Whether you need to hold the bar there or not depends on your bike's > geometry, tires, etc... Most bikes at high speed will have more

camber

> thrust than can be handled at a given lean angle (as required for > balancing -- remember, have to offset that outward thrust caused by > inertia!) and will require you to keep pushing (countersteering) in

order

> to provide enough scrub to offset the camber thrust. This is how

most

> bikes are set up, because this keeps the bike inherently stable --

if you

> let loose the bars, the steering geometry (trail) pulls the wheel

back

> straight, gyroscopic procession straightens the bike, and you quit

leaning

> and quit cornering and end up going straight. > > Thus while it doesn't make sense that your tire is pointing the

opposite

> way from the way you're turning, that's what's happening at high

speeds --

> because the camber thrust provided by your wheel at a given lean

angle

> required to offset outside inertia is more than what is required to

take a

> corner at that lean angle, thus some of that thrust to the inside

of the

> corner must by offset by scrub to the outside of the corner. This

is how

> it's supposed to work, because this is what keeps bikes stable at

high

> speeds, because it keeps them self-straightening. > > An example: Ride in a crosswind from the left. You will find that

you are

> leaning left into the wind (so that its force goes down the

centerline of

> the bike to the wheels to the ground), and your front wheel is

actually

> pointed RIGHT as you're going straight! > > -E