[dsn_klr650] nklr - klr riders who have served or are servi

[Alan L Henderson]

scttotis wrote:

> > I believe that Pete, but I am starting to think the mechanisms in play > are different maybe(till I perform the rotating bicycle tire on the > wheeled chair test). Clearly when you are on a bicycle and > countersteer, gravity and balance is the big factor. Maybe on the MC > at speed it is still the big factor, but maybe the steering of the > front wheel gyro rotates the bike over into the lean without as much > tire patch offtracking from underneath the rider. It would be great to > see some straight down helicopter shots of road racers to see how much > the tires move right as the rider leans left.

I acknowledge gyroscopic forces have a part in the whole process but I find it hard to believe that my front wheel could apply enough torque to flop my bikes 400lbs and my 400lbs over into a lean. If the force were that strong wouldn't it wrench the bike away from my grasp, and considerable mass, leaving me pretty much upright holding onto nothing. Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[Lee Dodge]

Look everyone who rides a monotrack vehicle at speeds above, say 20 MPH, may not KNOW they are countersteering but they are! There is a transition point a low speed where there is a traanstion from turning the bars (to either change direction or to keep the bike/bicycle under you) to countersteering. Try this, ride your bicycle or MC 'no-hands in a straight line. Take 1 finger and lightly apply 'forward' pressure pressure to either end of the handlbar-(don't lean just sit still and upright, we're trying to illustrate that leaning is not necessary to accomplish a direction change. Voila, the bike starts to bank to the SAME side to which the pressure is being applied. That's countersteering. You are upsetting the balance causing the bike to start to 'fall' initiating the turn. Yes leaning out to the side also causes the bike to become unbalanced and therefore to turn, but that is a very slow way to change direction. Alan Henderson's earlier post illustrated a avoidance technique that is an excellent example of this principal. Try it, you can move the wheels over by 10 and still basically NOT change course. Several words of warning which I assume would hope not be necessary to a group of MC riders, but here they are 1. don't do this if your bike won't track straight ahead with no hands on the bars 2. a throttle lock is helpful if you can't coast downgrade, 3. a straight road with no traffic is very desireable, 4. apply pressure gently with your fingertip as thought you were pointing straight ahead, gently first on 1 side then the other. I think you'll find you can't even detect any bar movement, yet you'll be making a shallow sine wave track on the pavement. --- Keith Saltzer wrote:

> > > > I have never suggested that counter steering > doesn't work. And it > works > > at slower speeds than 5 mph if you have good > enough balance to not > fall > > over. Counter steering works! Everyone should know > how to do it. > > Everyone should practice so when something has to > be avoided they > know > > how much to counter steer so they miss the object > but don't wind up > in a > > corn field after going through a barb wire fence. > Counter steering > works! > > > Ok. I wasn't saying it happens exactly at 5 mph > though, I did > say "about". I liked what Pat said about not > focusing on a specific > speed, and instead realizing that when the bike has > enough forward > momentum to balance itself is when countersteering > should be > initiated. > > > > If you don't believe that shifting weight in > relationship to the > contact > > patch of your tires can initiate a turn what is it > that you think > > happens when you counter steer? > > > I believe that when I counter steer to the left, to > turn right, I am > turning the bars, which causes the forks above the > front axle to > twist the very stable gyroscopic loaded front wheel > to turn to the > left, making it momentarily unstable, (as noticed > when you go over a > bump while putting a countersteering moment into the > bars) and causes > it to move to the left also, which is then followed > by the rear tire, > and then the bike begins to lean over and turn to > the right. I start > off my turns by pushing down on my left footpet to > gain a very stable > tripod position which allows me to use more strength > to turn the bars > quicker, and it gives me a firmly planted place to > hold my body mass > right where it was when I was going straight. > > > > Obviously if you were going to turn > > right you counter steer to the left by first > pushing the bars to > the > > left. Then what happens? > > > See above > > > >All the above is said in the spirit of friendly > discussion. > > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa > > > Great! Mine too. I think I am liking this thread > more than any > other thread that I have read on the list hear. > I've already learned > something, (the combined CG thing) and am always > looking to learn > more. But I also really get into talking about this > kinda stuff > because I know how valuable it was for me to learn > it all after > bumbleing around on a bike for 20 years before > learning it. I would > like to see as many riders as possible take this > information and > learn it, love it, and live it. > > > MrMoose > A8 (Barbie and Ken special) > > > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at > www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: > www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com > > > > > >

[Alan L Henderson]

Lee Dodge wrote:

> Alan Henderson's earlier post illustrated a avoidance > technique that is an excellent example of this > principal. Try it, you can move the wheels over by 10 > and still basically NOT change course. >

Actually it was Keith that mentioned it first, I just agreed with him. Interesting that we are all starting to agree with each other. Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[scttotis]

Thanks for the experience note. I've done that on a bicycle, and have been pondering that very question, wondering if the gyro forces cut down on the amount of wheel travel in the direction of countersteer. That proves it. THe bike tire patches go where you steer it, so on a bicycle or a motorcycle at speed, if you are going to make a left turn, and you have run through a paint puddle, the paint on the pavement will curve off to the right when you introduce the countersteer to the right and develop the left lean, then the paint will curve around to the left as you turn the steering wheel to the left. If thats not right, I dont care anymore! When reading the MC drivers manual though, the countersteer avoidance they talk about is the big one I think. Countersteer hard so you can quickly develop lean so that you can steer away hard in the direction of the lean. Keith's pothole avoidance technique will be a valuable skill.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Saltzer" wrote: > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "scttotis" wrote: > > >Clearly when you are on a bicycle and > > countersteer, gravity and balance is the big factor. Maybe on the MC > > at speed it is still the big factor, but maybe the steering of the > > front wheel gyro rotates the bike over into the lean without as much > > tire patch offtracking from underneath the rider. > > > No, the tires move to the left. The harder and faster you > countersteer the bars, the further your wheels move to the left. And > now that you bring it up, it's VERY important to know this when you > suddenly see a board, or debris right in front of you, about 10 feet > or less away from you when your at speed. If your wheels are lined > up to hit the last 2 inches on the RIGHT of a 12 inch board, normally > you would think that you just need to coutersteer to the left, to > turn right, to go around the right side of the board. But since the > object is so close to you at speed, your wheels would hit it dead > on. Instead, the correct thing to do would be to countersteer to the > right, hard and fast, causing the wheels to move over to the right > briefly and just missing the board, then you would quickly > countersteer back the other way and the bike's wheels would just slip > right back underneath you. It's cool when you do it. Your head and > torso are staying on your intended travel path and you manipulate the > bottom of the bike (and wheels) just long enough to miss the object. > It all seems double backwards and most riders do not know this > stuff. When you learn to steer a bike properly, you become a much > safer rider. > > >It would be great to > > see some straight down helicopter shots of road racers to see how > much > > the tires move right as the rider leans left. > > Here's a little test. Go straight down the road and hold your tires > to the right, directly beside bot dots, or something on the road that > it safe, and can be felt through your bike. Hold it steady and > straight, then, just counter steer to the left, to turn right, and > you will feel the wheels/ tires move over to the left and onto the > bumps, then you will turn to the right. Again, the harder you turn > the bars, the farther out your wheels will go at first. I can make > my bikes wheels move completely over 2 rows of bot dots and then some > out here in CA. If you add the width of the dots, the space between > them, and the area where my wheels/tires start and stop, it is over a > foot. > > > MrMoose > A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[scttotis]

Yep, we're all saying the same stuff in different ways. Just having a partial failure to communicate. I would make one other observation. When you spin a gyroscope, you have to force it to lean, we've all seen the toy gyro defying gravity (seemingly, not really), so , on a motorcycle, just shifting your weight is not as effective as it is on a bicycle because you now have to overcome the gyro forces to make the bike lean. But at any speed, bicycle or motorcycle, countersteering is an effective method for introducing lean. --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Alan L Henderson wrote:

> Lee Dodge wrote: > > > > Alan Henderson's earlier post illustrated a avoidance > > technique that is an excellent example of this > > principal. Try it, you can move the wheels over by 10 > > and still basically NOT change course. > > > > Actually it was Keith that mentioned it first, I just agreed with him. > Interesting that we are all starting to agree with each other. > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[klr250not]

I wondered about this countersteering business in the MSF course. They briefly mentioned it, as I recall, but said it was more for racers than beginners. I detect a little disagreement in the thread as to what countersteering really is. Its different than counter weighting--which we did practice in the MSF. In counterweighting drills we rode in tight figure 8s at a crawl, turning the front tire in the direction of the turn, obviously, but shifting ones bodyweight away from the lean to keep the bike from falling over. Heres my definition of countersteering as opposed to counterweighting described above: Countersteering is turning the front wheel in the opposite direction of the turn and the lean. You'll see sportbike racers doing this as they round curves as high speed. In a right turn, for example, the rider'll be leaned over so far to the right that their right knee will be skimming the pavement. At the same time, the front tire will be pointed maybe 20 degrees to the left as it would be if making a left turn at very low speed. Soon as I relocate some of the pictures Ive seen of this, I'll post a link. By the way, I'm not convinced countersteering works at lower speeds but I might try it ever so slightly at 15-20 mph to see what happens. --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Alan L Henderson wrote:

> Lee Dodge wrote: > > > > Alan Henderson's earlier post illustrated a avoidance > > technique that is an excellent example of this > > principal. Try it, you can move the wheels over by 10 > > and still basically NOT change course. > > > > Actually it was Keith that mentioned it first, I just agreed with

him.

> Interesting that we are all starting to agree with each other. > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[Eric L. Green]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, Alan L Henderson wrote:

> find it hard to believe that my front wheel could apply enough torque to > flop my bikes 400lbs and my 400lbs over into a lean. If the force were

You need to hold a 26" bicycle wheel, spin it at about 4mph while holding onto one of the axles, then try to turn it to the left as if turning the handlebar left. The wheel will bank STRONGLY to the right. You won't be able to STOP it from banking to the right no matter how hard you wrestle with the wheel. This is at under 5mph, with a much lighter wheel than the KLR's! If a single light bicycle wheel at under 5mph can produce 10lbs or more of gyroscopic banking thrust, then a KLR wheel moving at 20mph can certainly produce 50 lbs of banking thrust, which is more than enough to cause the KLR to bank. (To bank my KLR while holding it upright, I need apply only a few pounds of pressure at most!).

> that strong wouldn't it wrench the bike away from my grasp, and > considerable mass, leaving me pretty much upright holding onto nothing.

That can certainly happen if the wheel, e.g., hits an obstacle that forces it to one side. An example is if you fall into a rut that forces the wheel to jerk to one side. The bike then attempts to lean the other way, throwing you off the bike. Anybody who's done any kind of offroad motorcycling has managed to do this at one time or another. -E

[scttotis]

THe part about this that I'm having trouble with is the part about the left handlebar turn as the MC is fully leaned over into a right turn, through out the right turn. It does make sense to me if the rear end is sliding out left like it does on dirt tracks, but even in that case the front would be steeeing right of the tangent line of the curve it is tracing. The reason it doesn't sound right is because you should have a cornering force, squirm inducing cornering force, to bring the front end around in the curve. We're going to get to the bottom of this sooner or later.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "klr250not" wrote: > > I wondered about this countersteering business in the MSF course. > They briefly mentioned it, as I recall, but said it was more for > racers than beginners. I detect a little disagreement in the thread > as to what countersteering really is. Its different than counter > weighting--which we did practice in the MSF. In counterweighting > drills we rode in tight figure 8s at a crawl, turning the front tire > in the direction of the turn, obviously, but shifting ones > bodyweight away from the lean to keep the bike from falling over. > > Heres my definition of countersteering as opposed to > counterweighting described above: > > Countersteering is turning the front wheel in the opposite direction > of the turn and the lean. You'll see sportbike racers doing this as > they round curves as high speed. In a right turn, for example, the > rider'll be leaned over so far to the right that their right knee > will be skimming the pavement. At the same time, the front tire > will be pointed maybe 20 degrees to the left as it would be if > making a left turn at very low speed. Soon as I relocate some of > the pictures Ive seen of this, I'll post a link. > > By the way, I'm not convinced countersteering works at lower speeds > but I might try it ever so slightly at 15-20 mph to see what happens. > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Alan L Henderson > wrote: > > Lee Dodge wrote: > > > > > > > Alan Henderson's earlier post illustrated a avoidance > > > technique that is an excellent example of this > > > principal. Try it, you can move the wheels over by 10 > > > and still basically NOT change course. > > > > > > > Actually it was Keith that mentioned it first, I just agreed with > him. > > Interesting that we are all starting to agree with each other. > > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[Doug Herr]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, scttotis wrote:

> THe part about this that I'm having trouble with is the part about the > left handlebar turn as the MC is fully leaned over into a right turn, > through out the right turn. It does make sense to me if the rear end > is sliding out left like it does on dirt tracks, but even in that case > the front would be steeeing right of the tangent line of the curve it > is tracing. The reason it doesn't sound right is because you should > have a cornering force, squirm inducing cornering force, to bring the > front end around in the curve. We're going to get to the bottom of > this sooner or later.

Easy. Ride. I watch what happens... I see a short push right for a left turn and then as the turn starts the bars turn left to make the turn. A very small farther left push leans me back up and then the bars move back to straight line. It really does happen regardless of what we may think. -- Doug Herr doug@...

[John Kokola]

You'll only see this (whether on pavement or on dirt) when the rear tire is stepping out -- i.e. in a 'loss of traction' situation. Otherwise, it's 'normal' countersteering as discussed previously, like this: http://www.amasuperbike.com/adm/upl/584yc7mpc6_1088447132.jpg> --John Kokola

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "klr250not" wrote: > > Countersteering is turning the front wheel in the opposite direction > of the turn and the lean. You'll see sportbike racers doing this as > they round curves as high speed. In a right turn, for example, the > rider'll be leaned over so far to the right that their right knee > will be skimming the pavement. At the same time, the front tire > will be pointed maybe 20 degrees to the left as it would be if > making a left turn at very low speed.