[dsn_klr650] nklr - klr riders who have served or are servi

[Alan L Henderson]

Keith Saltzer wrote:

> I don't need all of that gadgetry to see and feel that when the bike > is moving faster than about 5 mph, if I turn the bars to the left, > the bike falls over and goes to the right. That's it. There's

I have never suggested that counter steering doesn't work. And it works at slower speeds than 5 mph if you have good enough balance to not fall over. Counter steering works! Everyone should know how to do it. Everyone should practice so when something has to be avoided they know how much to counter steer so they miss the object but don't wind up in a corn field after going through a barb wire fence. Counter steering works!

> > > Keith Code is a Motorcycle RIDING instructor and has been for many > years now. He teaches people how to ride the bike. He teaches many

I stand corrected.

> > I don't know exactly what you are saying here, but you don't "shift > your weight" to initiate a turn. You turn the handle bars to do

I will leave out any turning with no counter steer discussion. If you don't believe that shifting weight in relationship to the contact patch of your tires can initiate a turn what is it that you think happens when you counter steer? Obviously if you were going to turn right you counter steer to the left by first pushing the bars to the left. Then what happens?

> > MrMoose > A8 (Barbie and Ken special) >

All the above is said in the spirit of friendly discussion. Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[mwl_95623]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Alan L Henderson >

> Counter steering works! Everyone should know how to do it. > Everyone should practice so when something has to be avoided they > >know how much to counter steer so they miss the object but don't wind >up in a corn field after going through a barb wire fence. Counter >steering works!

I really haven't had time to follow this discussion so I apologize if this has already been said. But I think THE most important reason to be aware of the affects of counter steering, and to practice it regulary, is so that in an emegency situation you don't steer directly into the hazard. In other words, natural instinct is to turn the handle bars away from the hazard which will actually steer you directly into the hazard. Push left ... go left. Push right ...go right. Matt

[Tengai Mark Van Horn]

At 3:37 PM +0000 12/14/04, mwl_95623 wrote:

>--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Alan L Henderson > >> Counter steering works! Everyone should know how to do it. >> Everyone should practice so when something has to be avoided they > >>know how much to counter steer so they miss the object but don't wind >>up in a corn field after going through a barb wire fence. Counter >>steering works! > >I really haven't had time to follow this discussion so I apologize if >this has already been said. But I think THE most important reason to >be aware of the affects of counter steering, and to practice it >regulary, is so that in an emegency situation you don't steer directly >into the hazard. In other words, natural instinct is to turn the >handle bars away from the hazard which will actually steer you >directly into the hazard. Push left ... go left. Push right ...go right. > >Matt

I haven't followed this thread either. All I can say is that there looks like there's entirely too much debate on this subject. Maneuvering a freakin' motorcycle is intuitive, like riding a bicycle. It shouldn't take years of practice or some sort getting into a zen state. If folks can't handle that, they should take up simpler hobbies and modes of transportation, like watching dog shows and riding mass-transit. Mark

[Alan L Henderson]

Tengai Mark Van Horn wrote:

> > I haven't followed this thread either. All I can say is that there > looks like there's entirely too much debate on this subject. > Maneuvering a freakin' motorcycle is intuitive, like riding a > bicycle. It shouldn't take years of practice or some sort getting > into a zen state. > If folks can't handle that, they should take up simpler hobbies and > modes of transportation, like watching dog shows and riding > mass-transit. > > Mark

Apparently target fixation is intuitive also and a healthy part of motorcycle riding. Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[Eric L. Green]

On Tue, 14 Dec 2004, Tengai Mark Van Horn wrote:

> I haven't followed this thread either. All I can say is that there > looks like there's entirely too much debate on this subject. > Maneuvering a freakin' motorcycle is intuitive, like riding a > bicycle. It shouldn't take years of practice or some sort getting > into a zen state.

Obviously you do not remember learning how to ride a bicycle (grin). There was nothing "intuitive" about it. The "intuitive" thing to do was keep as far away from that two-wheeled contraption as possible, because you just *knew* it was gonna fall over, taking you to the ground underneath a pile of metal that at the time weighed almost as much as you did... Knowing the actual mechanisms via which such a contraption stays upright and steers is not intuitive, but, rather, gained via the school of hard knocks. On a bicycle, the school of hard knocks resulted in numerous scraped knees and bruises. On the highway... well, let us say that you do NOT want to learn via the school of hard knocks when you are proceeding down the highway at 60mph on a motorcycle. Best to learn the easy way -- the practiced formal way -- *before* you end up sliding on your butt off the side of a cliff and falling 500 feet to the rocks below. -E

[scttotis]

I believe that Pete, but I am starting to think the mechanisms in play are different maybe(till I perform the rotating bicycle tire on the wheeled chair test). Clearly when you are on a bicycle and countersteer, gravity and balance is the big factor. Maybe on the MC at speed it is still the big factor, but maybe the steering of the front wheel gyro rotates the bike over into the lean without as much tire patch offtracking from underneath the rider. It would be great to see some straight down helicopter shots of road racers to see how much the tires move right as the rider leans left. --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Peter Meilstrup wrote:

> I'm going to be WAY controversial and assert that the "countersteering > does not work at very slow speeds" claim is also bunk. The principle > works all the way down to zero. > > Try this: ride through a puddle, then make tight turns at slow speed. > Then go back and look at your tire tracks. What you'll see is that > your front tire track turns to the outside breifly before it starts > curving into your turn. > > -pm > > On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:43:38 EST, kdxkawboy@a... wrote: > > > > Rather than fixate on a speed, the better description is to say

that once you

> > have reached a speed where the bike has gained a balance of its

own due to

> > its forward velocity you can start countersteering. Before the

bike gains its

> > own balance you must turn the bars in the direction you want to

go. That is

> > something you can feel instead of looking at the speedo to know when. > > > > Pat > > G'ville, Nv > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com > > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > >

[Keith Saltzer]

> I have never suggested that counter steering doesn't work. And it

works

> at slower speeds than 5 mph if you have good enough balance to not

fall

> over. Counter steering works! Everyone should know how to do it. > Everyone should practice so when something has to be avoided they

know

> how much to counter steer so they miss the object but don't wind up

in a

> corn field after going through a barb wire fence. Counter steering

works! Ok. I wasn't saying it happens exactly at 5 mph though, I did say "about". I liked what Pat said about not focusing on a specific speed, and instead realizing that when the bike has enough forward momentum to balance itself is when countersteering should be initiated.

> If you don't believe that shifting weight in relationship to the

contact

> patch of your tires can initiate a turn what is it that you think > happens when you counter steer?

I believe that when I counter steer to the left, to turn right, I am turning the bars, which causes the forks above the front axle to twist the very stable gyroscopic loaded front wheel to turn to the left, making it momentarily unstable, (as noticed when you go over a bump while putting a countersteering moment into the bars) and causes it to move to the left also, which is then followed by the rear tire, and then the bike begins to lean over and turn to the right. I start off my turns by pushing down on my left footpet to gain a very stable tripod position which allows me to use more strength to turn the bars quicker, and it gives me a firmly planted place to hold my body mass right where it was when I was going straight.

> Obviously if you were going to turn > right you counter steer to the left by first pushing the bars to

the

> left. Then what happens?

See above

>All the above is said in the spirit of friendly discussion. > Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

Great! Mine too. I think I am liking this thread more than any other thread that I have read on the list hear. I've already learned something, (the combined CG thing) and am always looking to learn more. But I also really get into talking about this kinda stuff because I know how valuable it was for me to learn it all after bumbleing around on a bike for 20 years before learning it. I would like to see as many riders as possible take this information and learn it, love it, and live it. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[Keith Saltzer]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "scttotis" wrote:

>Clearly when you are on a bicycle and > countersteer, gravity and balance is the big factor. Maybe on the MC > at speed it is still the big factor, but maybe the steering of the > front wheel gyro rotates the bike over into the lean without as much > tire patch offtracking from underneath the rider.

No, the tires move to the left. The harder and faster you countersteer the bars, the further your wheels move to the left. And now that you bring it up, it's VERY important to know this when you suddenly see a board, or debris right in front of you, about 10 feet or less away from you when your at speed. If your wheels are lined up to hit the last 2 inches on the RIGHT of a 12 inch board, normally you would think that you just need to coutersteer to the left, to turn right, to go around the right side of the board. But since the object is so close to you at speed, your wheels would hit it dead on. Instead, the correct thing to do would be to countersteer to the right, hard and fast, causing the wheels to move over to the right briefly and just missing the board, then you would quickly countersteer back the other way and the bike's wheels would just slip right back underneath you. It's cool when you do it. Your head and torso are staying on your intended travel path and you manipulate the bottom of the bike (and wheels) just long enough to miss the object. It all seems double backwards and most riders do not know this stuff. When you learn to steer a bike properly, you become a much safer rider.

>It would be great to > see some straight down helicopter shots of road racers to see how

much

> the tires move right as the rider leans left.

Here's a little test. Go straight down the road and hold your tires to the right, directly beside bot dots, or something on the road that it safe, and can be felt through your bike. Hold it steady and straight, then, just counter steer to the left, to turn right, and you will feel the wheels/ tires move over to the left and onto the bumps, then you will turn to the right. Again, the harder you turn the bars, the farther out your wheels will go at first. I can make my bikes wheels move completely over 2 rows of bot dots and then some out here in CA. If you add the width of the dots, the space between them, and the area where my wheels/tires start and stop, it is over a foot. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[Alan L Henderson]

Keith Saltzer wrote:

> No, the tires move to the left. The harder and faster you > countersteer the bars, the further your wheels move to the left. And > now that you bring it up, it's VERY important to know this when you > suddenly see a board, or debris right in front of you, about 10 feet > or less away from you when your at speed. If your wheels are lined > up to hit the last 2 inches on the RIGHT of a 12 inch board, normally > you would think that you just need to coutersteer to the left, to > turn right, to go around the right side of the board. But since the > object is so close to you at speed, your wheels would hit it dead > on. Instead, the correct thing to do would be to countersteer to the > right, hard and fast, causing the wheels to move over to the right > briefly and just missing the board, then you would quickly > countersteer back the other way and the bike's wheels would just slip > right back underneath you. It's cool when you do it. Your head and > torso are staying on your intended travel path and you manipulate the > bottom of the bike (and wheels) just long enough to miss the object. > It all seems double backwards and most riders do not know this > stuff. When you learn to steer a bike properly, you become a much > safer rider. > > MrMoose > A8 (Barbie and Ken special) >

I was going to mention the same maneuver but you beat me to it. It not only feels cool but there is something about the dynamics of the situation that's kind of a rush. But then I kind of get a rush from watching the dynamics of pulling out and passing a car on a four lane that is going slightly slower than I am. Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[Alan L Henderson]

Keith Saltzer wrote:

> I believe that when I counter steer to the left, to turn right, I am > turning the bars, which causes the forks above the front axle to > twist the very stable gyroscopic loaded front wheel to turn to the > left, making it momentarily unstable, (as noticed when you go over a > bump while putting a countersteering moment into the bars) and causes > it to move to the left also, which is then followed by the rear tire, > and then the bike begins to lean over and turn to the right. > > MrMoose > A8 (Barbie and Ken special) >

Yep! And when the tires move to the left you have just shifted the contact patch of your tires out from under the center of gravity of your bike, causing the bike and rider to fall to the right until stability is reached when the front wheel swings around to the right and all forces stabilize into a nice steady arc to the right. Very similar, it would seem, to shifting your weight to the right causing the contact patch of the wheels to be to the left of the center of gravity of the bike rider combo. The bike starts to fall to the right until the rider and other forces involved with steering geometry turn the wheel to the right until stability is reached and you have a nice steady arc to the right. Can this be done as quickly as counter steering? No. Not at all. It is more efficient to steer the bike out from under its self. Alot is effected by the weight of the rider verses the weight of the bike and the speed which changes gyroscopic stability. The faster you go the more gyroscopic stability. Alan L Henderson A13 Iowa the king of the run on sentence