vista cruise modification

[Norm Keller]

#ygrps-yiv-1291155077 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-1291155077cite {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;} #ygrps-yiv-1291155077 blockquote.ygrps-yiv-1291155077cite2 {margin-left:5px;margin-right:0px;padding-left:10px;padding-right:0px;border-left:1px solid #cccccc;margin-top:3px;padding-top:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1291155077 .ygrps-yiv-1291155077plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-1291155077 .ygrps-yiv-1291155077plain tt {font-family:monospace;font-size:100%;font-weight:normal;font-style:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1291155077 {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} #ygrps-yiv-1291155077 .ygrps-yiv-1291155077plain pre, #ygrps-yiv-1291155077 .ygrps-yiv-1291155077plain tt {font-family:Tahoma;font-size:12pt;} Great "rant". I used the term "rant" because they are all good points.   I imagine the problem for Kawasaki is that they sell tons of KLR's so investing in "improvements" might not be in the interest of the stock holders. Before someone assumes that I use "stock holders" in a disparaging manner, let me say that I don't. Kawasaki's reason for being is not to make motorcycles, it is to return profit to the share holders. Making motorcycles is simply one of their strategies , but that's obvious and the way our system works.   Hope none of this sounds argumentative....   Fuel injection?  A tough call....it wouldn't be a positive on my list for an adventure bike. Diagnosing and repairing in remote areas where a scanner, fuel pressure adapter and other tools are not available, is not a positive. Mileage improvement, potential power increase, etc. won't line up with the increased cost and complexity, from my perspective. Just consider the problems some bikes have with fuel injection flaws or the problems in fooling the system to accommodate some modification.   I agree with the cast wheels and other silliness regarding trying to turn some of these street bikes into a pretend adventure bike. Guys with whom I rode back roads years ago were often of two types, those who rode and those who talked about all the things they would do when they got their next and vastly superior bike. GS BMW's were high on the list and several went over to those, complete with $1,000 optional cruise control. Of course they didn't ride any of the roads we used to do with the KLR's because the new bike was both too unsuitable and too pricey. Confined to pavement, the GS was shown to be very inferior to my Honda sport tourer. Sort of like the pretender "off road" 4x4 pick up owners who have a crappy road vehicle combined with a hopeless off road one.     I agree with most of your points and that I might not agree with others is simply a request to hear more of others' thoughts. I've been married for more than 35 years so know how wrong I can be.   Avoid eye contact. Back slowly away.....   I like the weather protected under fairing areas of the Gen2 but don't like the wider fairing...that makes sense, right?   Bigger alternator, better/more lights, would be my higher desires.   Thanks for the "rant". It's thought provoking.

[Eddie]

=) In 36k+ miles, I had one tipover in wet grass at a fairgrounds on the DL1000 and a passer-by helped me stand it back up. Knock on wood: Have not dropped the 1200 Tenere and never dropped the DL650 (or the 919, Sportster 1200, GL1800 #2, either SV650, the FZ8 nor FZ-09. ) -eddie

----- Original Message ----- [b]From:[/b] robert@... [DSN_KLR650] [b]To:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com ; edgyver40@... ; RJTaylor@... [b]Sent:[/b] Monday, July 07, 2014 8:45 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_KLR650] KLR Rant   So you didn't ever drop the others, or what? Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C I've owned two Transalp 600s, a DL1000, A DL650 and a KLR650. Only the Transalps and KLR ever ended up on top of me in the woods.My Super Tenere has indeed been offroad. But, I've yet to need the optional factor electric winch. (Not a joke: Look it up on the Yamaha site!) =) eddie

[Mike Frey]

I know I'm comparing Apples with Oranges, but... if Yamaha can set the MSRP at $6990 for their excellent new FZ-07, there is no reason why Kawasaki (KLR-650 MSRP $6499) couldn't sell a 6 speed, fuel injected, lighter weight, higher torque 650 dual sport for only a little bit more than the KLR now costs. So, why don't they do just that? The answer is, people are buying what they are making, so they don't have to. Mike On 7/7/2014 12:15 PM, RJTaylor@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:

I've never bought into that EFI versus carburator reliability argument. At this point that argument is the equivalent of an old wive's tale. It might have applied 20 years ago when EFI was first introduced. But now EFI is just as, if not more reliable than carburators. How many bikes do you see on the side of the road because of EFI issues? If you like carburators because you can crack them open, fine. Me personally I'd rather just maintain them. What I get sick of is all the upgrades people try to throw at the KLR to squeeze a couple more horses out of it. Cylinder upgrades, displacement kits, muffler replacements. The real problem on the KLR is the 20 year old design. It's time for Kaw to step up. Or they'll lose me on the next bike.

[rrttbbnn]

Many people like the KLR because it is lawnmower stupid simple.  A KLR with perhaps 20k miles and 10-20 years on it is going to be a lot easier to keep running than any fuel injection.  Just take a trip through any junkyard, and look at all of the 15-25 year old vehicles there that look fine and you wonder why they are there.  I'm also talking about V12 S500 Mercedes and Jags.  It is because this electrinic stuff put on vehicles today that works very well when new, turns into complicated, expensive dogs down the road.  True, this is usually near the reasonable life of the vehicle, but if you need to keep your vehicle going for many, many years, a carb is far easier.   When was the last time you saw someone restore a 25 year old computer controlled car?  Hoe often do you see someone restore a 50 year old carb car?   Jeff     -----Original Message----- From: RJTaylor@... [DSN_KLR650] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> To: DSN_KLR650 DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Mon, Jul 7, 2014 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] KLR Rant   Simple, they can do better.  EFI wasn't available when the KLR was first introduced in it's current configuration.  It is now.  And it;s a lot more reliable (worldwide) than it used to be; even with foreign gas.   No one called the KLR crummy or old.  It's old technology that can and should be improved.  Everyone else is.   I'm sure there are fans of 1960's pushrod iron V8's out there.  But fact is the basic auto today is more powerful, more efficient, more reliable than cars past.  So are the current bike designs.  The basic KLR hasn't changed in 20 years.  It's time.  

[Norm Keller]

Other than my 1986 Toyota MR2?   

 

Having had to admit that, I'm still far more willing to play with older carbureted bikes.

 

I'm frequently wishing for more power from the KLR but then when someone else states that they need more power, I ask, "Need?". My stock KLR will do a tad over 140 clicks up the Hope Slide Hill which is among the steepest hills in this part of the world. That's 40 over the limit so a big fine and maybe impounding of the bike, despite that there's no risk to anyone but best not to get me started....   "So", I ask, "why do you 'need' more power than that?"

 

As for the additional gear...yes, I'm frequently wanting to shift up one more but also did the same on my ST1100 which wasn't reving much at highway speeds....

 

I think I'd like a stump puller first gear, then the same 5 gears above that....

 

Fun to knock these things around so long as no one becomes too invested.

[notanymoore]

FI has been around almost as long as Carburators.  The electronic version for almost half a century.  Since when is replacing a fuel injector and electronic module any more complicated that breaking down a carburator? The crotch rocket guys do it all the time. And it also doesn't seem to affect the rebuilding of autos from the 70's and 80's.   

You're confusing the electronic fuel mapping modules with all the other electronic doodads on today's cars and bikes.  Not the same thing.  EFI systems just consist of the pump, injector and electronic module.  All fairly sturdy stuff.  If you're that worried about electronics, why doesn't the KLR still have a kickstart? 

In term of the complaint about more power.  Heck almost everyone in this group talks about getting more power out of the KLR.  Fact is, it is underpowered for a motorcycle of it's size.  EFI would do more for that than any other modification Kaw could make on the bike.  

Sorry, the arguments for carburation just fall away compared to current EFI systems.  As one respondent pointed out, Kaw doesn't add EFI because people still buy the bike as it is.  The main reason is it has  virtually no competition as a watercooled single within it's displacement class - except for Euro models at twice the price.  If that ever changes, I beleive Kaw will as well.  It just may be too late for me. 

Beside I don't want to ride a lawnmower.  I want to ride a motorcycle.  

[rrttbbnn]

Pump, injector, electronic module?? Thats it?  How about adding coolant temp sensor, oxygen sensor, MAP sensor,  throttle position sensor, related wiring, plus probably more I can't think of.  All stuff to go wrong in an offroad, flooded situation.   I operate large hydo generators at the municipal loevel.  I have seen the bozos at the management level want to automate everything with compuiters.  Generators that have been operating flawlwssly for 100+ years, and now they want to computerize them.  Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent at the local utility putting computers on the generators, and it is one fiasco after another.  I have spoken with operators at other utilities, and they say the same thing.  But you won't hear it in official announcements from the utility - to embarassing.    Sure, the computers on cars work well because they are well sorted out, and they make millions of them.  And yes, it would probably improve the performance and probably emissions.  But the KLR is noted for being a simple, inexpensive, easy to work on beast.  You want fuel injection?  Next week someone will want ABS.  Next week someone wants something else.  In an effort to make the whole world happy, you end up with what happens to every other vehicle through its' production run - it turns into an overweight, complicated, expensive pig.   I think you should take note of the fact that the KLR HASN'T changed in 20+ years,  That should tell you something.   Then again, maybe it won't.   Jeff     -----Original Message----- From: RJTaylor@... [DSN_KLR650] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> To: DSN_KLR650 DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jul 8, 2014 8:45 am Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] KLR Rant   FI has been around almost as long as Carburators.  The electronic version for almost half a century.  Since when is replacing a fuel injector and electronic module any more complicated that breaking down a carburator? The crotch rocket guys do it all the time. And it also doesn't seem to affect the rebuilding of autos from the 70's and 80's.    You're confusing the electronic fuel mapping modules with all the other electronic doodads on today's cars and bikes.  Not the same thing.  EFI systems just consist of the pump, injector and electronic module.  All fairly sturdy stuff.  If you're that worried about electronics, why doesn't the KLR still have a kickstart?  In term of the complaint about more power.  Heck almost everyone in this group talks about getting more power out of the KLR.  Fact is, it is underpowered for a motorcycle of it's size.  EFI would do more for that than any other modification Kaw could make on the bike.   Sorry, the arguments for carburation just fall away compared to current EFI systems.  As one respondent pointed out, Kaw doesn't add EFI because people still buy the bike as it is.  The main reason is it has  virtually no competition as a watercooled single within it's displacement class - except for Euro models at twice the price.  If that ever changes, I beleive Kaw will as well.  It just may be too late for me.  Beside I don't want to ride a lawnmower.  I want to ride a motorcycle.  

[John Biccum]

Maybe a month after buying my (fuel injected) V-Strom I pulled into a gas station for fuel. After filling the bike it wouldn't crank. The onboard diagnostics indicated SOME fault, I knew this because the CHEC was illuminated on the dash. But check what?  The owners manual told me only that the fault code was stored in the ECU (engine control unit). Suzuki doesn't use standard OBD codes or connectors so I had to  tow the bike to the dealer. They connected a (dealer only) computerized tool to the bike which indicated that the fault was with the clutch switch. ( the clutch lever had to be pulled in to start the bike). The problem was that the clutch electrical switch that tells the ECU that the clutch lever was pulled in had come electrically disconnected from the plug on the wiring harness.  The plug was still physically connect to the clutch switch but was not making contact.   Three hours and $100 later I was on my way. Yes, electronic fuel injection system are remarkably reliable.  But all the computerization needed to make them work makes it difficult to troubleshoot them on the road, especially if the information provided by the ECU is locked away such that only dealers can read it. In Baja on KLRs we ran into places where we were buying fuel from roadside entrepreneurs selling from 55 gallon plastic barrels. Most of this fuel was fine but one tankload contained some sand which found its way into the carb bowl jamming the float open. I dropped the bowl, cleaned it, cleaned the needle seat and we were on the way.  I couldn't imagine a similar outcome if the injectors on  FI bike were contaminated by sand. I love FI but for a bike for the backcountry the simplicity of a carb has merit. From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: 7/ 8/ 2014 9:09 To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com; RJTaylor@... Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] KLR Rant   Pump, injector, electronic module?? Thats it?  How about adding coolant temp sensor, oxygen sensor, MAP sensor,  throttle position sensor, related wiring, plus probably more I can't think of.  All stuff to go wrong in an offroad, flooded situation.   I operate large hydo generators at the municipal loevel.  I have seen the bozos at the management level want to automate everything with compuiters.  Generators that have been operating flawlwssly for 100+ years, and now they want to computerize them.  Hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent at the local utility putting computers on the generators, and it is one fiasco after another.  I have spoken with operators at other utilities, and they say the same thing.  But you won't hear it in official announcements from the utility - to embarassing.    Sure, the computers on cars work well because they are well sorted out, and they make millions of them.  And yes, it would probably improve the performance and probably emissions.  But the KLR is noted for being a simple, inexpensive, easy to work on beast.  You want fuel injection?  Next week someone will want ABS.  Next week someone wants something else.  In an effort to make the whole world happy, you end up with what happens to every other vehicle through its' production run - it turns into an overweight, complicated, expensive pig.   I think you should take note of the fact that the KLR HASN'T changed in 20+ years,  That should tell you something.   Then again, maybe it won't.   Jeff     -----Original Message----- From: RJTaylor@... [DSN_KLR650] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> To: DSN_KLR650 DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Tue, Jul 8, 2014 8:45 am Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] KLR Rant   FI has been around almost as long as Carburators.  The electronic version for almost half a century.  Since when is replacing a fuel injector and electronic module any more complicated that breaking down a carburator? The crotch rocket guys do it all the time. And it also doesn't seem to affect the rebuilding of autos from the 70's and 80's.    You're confusing the electronic fuel mapping modules with all the other electronic doodads on today's cars and bikes.  Not the same thing.  EFI systems just consist of the pump, injector and electronic module.  All fairly sturdy stuff.  If you're that worried about electronics, why doesn't the KLR still have a kickstart?  In term of the complaint about more power.  Heck almost everyone in this group talks about getting more power out of the KLR.  Fact is, it is underpowered for a motorcycle of it's size.  EFI would do more for that than any other modification Kaw could make on the bike.   Sorry, the arguments for carburation just fall away compared to current EFI systems.  As one respondent pointed out, Kaw doesn't add EFI because people still buy the bike as it is.  The main reason is it has  virtually no competition as a watercooled single within it's displacement class - except for Euro models at twice the price.  If that ever changes, I beleive Kaw will as well.  It just may be too late for me.  Beside I don't want to ride a lawnmower.  I want to ride a motorcycle.  

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[Norm Keller]

#ygrps-yiv-1132838022 BLOCKQUOTE.ygrps-yiv-1132838022cite { PADDING-LEFT:10px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1px solid;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132838022 BLOCKQUOTE.ygrps-yiv-1132838022cite2 { PADDING-TOP:0px;PADDING-LEFT:10px;MARGIN-LEFT:5px;BORDER-LEFT:#cccccc 1px solid;MARGIN-TOP:3px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;MARGIN-RIGHT:0px;} #ygrps-yiv-1132838022 .ygrps-yiv-1132838022plain PRE { FONT-SIZE:100%;FONT-FAMILY:monospace;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1132838022 .ygrps-yiv-1132838022plain TT { FONT-SIZE:100%;FONT-FAMILY:monospace;FONT-WEIGHT:normal;FONT-STYLE:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1132838022 .ygrps-yiv-1132838022plain PRE { FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} #ygrps-yiv-1132838022 .ygrps-yiv-1132838022plain TT { FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} #ygrps-yiv-1132838022 { FONT-SIZE:12pt;FONT-FAMILY:Tahoma;} I hope that no one becomes too invested in one position or the other. I find that these subjects often become mired in bad feelings but since we aren't deciding the matter here, there seems no reason to disrespect anyone. If I had the over riding need to be right, I'd never have married.    "EFI systems just consist of the pump, injector and electronic module. All fairly sturdy stuff. If you're that worried about electronics, why doesn't the KLR still have a kickstart? "   I'd posit that the KLR doesn't still have a kick start because Kawasaki decided they didn't need to install one in order to sell the bikes. Right or wrong, why would you posit that I'm worried about electronics? I'm not.   I am likely far more able to compare breaker point or even buzz box ignition systems to various electronic ones than many technicians because I worked with both for many decades. I've also worked with DC generators, mechanical regulators as well as alternators and their mechanical versus electronic regulation. I accept your point that these systems are extraordinary in reliability but don't accept that this supports EFI for cheap/small market machines.   We will see. I do know for certain that they won't be asking me to be part of the decision making process so can only sit back to see what happens. 

[Jeff Saline]

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All fairly sturdy stuff. If you're that worried about electronics, why doesn't the KLR still have a kickstart? "   <><><><><><><> <><><><><><><>   Earlier this year I just happened to get a pretty fair deal on a complete kickstart setup from a KLR600 with only 900 miles.  The parts look like new out of the box.  Whether I install it or not is another story.  I have a Gen I KLR650 (2003) and it doesn't need a battery to start/run.  My understanding is the Gen II KLR650s have a different ignition system and require a battery to operate.  I also understand the engine must be turning 300 rpm or more to initiate ignition.  So no kickstart on a Gen II in most cases unless someone wants the "bling".  I have not verified the required rpm information but believe it to be correct.   When I bought my first BMW while in Germany in the early 80s I wanted a kickstart option.  The salesman looked me up and down and then said I was too small to kickstart a 1000cc BMW.  He said the only use of the kickstarter was to turn the engine over after storage to circulate engine oil.  I never have had the opportunity to kickstart a 1000cc BMW but I've kickstarted my 900cc BMW quite a few times.  I think the salesman was wrong about me being to small to kick one over.  In the early 80s BMW changed from points to an electronic ignition system trigger.  Turns out they had to come up with two modules, one for electric start and one for kick start.  It had something to do with the length of time required to trigger the system as kick starting tends to take longer than 2 seconds between kicks.  I guess it needed a pulse to initiate and then again a certain rpm to trigger.  The electric starter could easily provide the pulse and rpms in a short push of the button but with kickstart it would shut down between kicks and never get ignition.   Since I've allowed myself to get sucked into this "rant" thread...  I think if the KLR is changed in ways like different tranie, EFI, ABS, suspension, price, etc. it will no longer be a KLR as many people know the KLR today.  For me simple is better than complicated in most situations.  I'm usually a function over form type of guy.  Change the bike and hopefully change the designation too.  Just going between Gen I and Gen II is complicated enough, adding a Gen III will be confusing.   Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 . . . . . .     ____________________________________________________________ [b]The #1 Worst Carb Ever?[/b] Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!) 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