???f fixed ??? (was "high rpm miss .......... any updates???

[James W. Flower]

Mark-  1.  I could switch the order of the plug wire's resistor, but the miss was there before I took it apart, and it's still there, so the order of those parts can't be the problem. 2.  The miss was there when the (stock) vacuum petcock was installed, and it's still there after installing the gravity feed petcock mod. 3.  Can't tell from the "bang" test that anything's loose in the muffler.  But I should say that it's an aftermarket muffler, a LEXX, which ran fine for many miles before the miss appeared.-James On Jun 15, 2014, at 4:14 AM, mark ward wrote:

Over 20+ years as a service tech, (diesel mech. in Navy, Machine repair, HVAC, Plumbing, Home & commercial appliance repair.  AUTO & BIKES JUST HOBBY) I learned some times you have to stop, take a breath, and SEPERATE EVERYTHING in your head, Sometimes you can have a "COINCIDENCE" in timing. you repair 1 thing and the unit starts doing something else wrong SO YOU TAKE IT FOR GRANTED IT'S DO TO WHAT YOU DID.  NOT ALWAY'S, BUT OFTEN IS, (just about everyone has moved a lamp re-plugged it in, and the bulb blows the second you turn it on.  THAT was just Timing, but our 1st thought is what did I! do wrong.   OK, lets start slow, breaking down each step. STARTING WITH FREE TO CHEAP to $$! (check 1&3 before running for a new hose, but I would lay better odd's on the hose them Muffler. and even if the muffler rattles still, the hose is CHEAP P.M.S.) FREE1. You mentioned a Resistor spring & screw, when you talked about spark plug & die-electric grease.   And possibly, putting on in wrong order?  you can often pull up a schematic threw dealers parts pages, to see a picture of them in order.  Cheap. ($0.50- $2.)2.Did you check / replace the Vacuum line from the petcock to the carb?  The higher the RPMs the stronger the vacuum, AND as it WARMS UP. it gets softer, and MAY, collapse. (like sucking on a thick milkshake threw cheap straw, it collapses restricking flow even more.)  FREE TEST (at first) 3. take your fist and bang on the Muffler, to see if you hear any rattle INSIDE. (IF! a baffle is loose it "MAY" Restrict full air flow.)   On Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:24 AM, "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> wrote:   Mark, thanks for asking. I'm playing with this in my spare time (work is the curse of the cycling class), learning a lot about the machine but not resolving the problem. Still have the miss. It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. Stuff I tried: New air filter (K&N, which I gather is not the best in dirt, but I had it handy). Switched to the gravity feed petcock. Checked fuel flow (one gallon in five minutes). Changed spark plug (the NGK Iridium one, thanks Fred); gap .033-.034". Checked plug wire resistor. Trimmed plug wire (just on general principles, it looked fine), dialectric-greased it. (I put the resistor back in first, then the little spring, then the screw; maybe it's supposed to be spring-resistor-screw, but the way I did it seems to work fine.) Replaced CDI unit (on a hunch, and because the consensus seems to be that the test drill in Clymer's is non-dispositive). Checked diode unit. Checked ignition coil. Checked exciter coil. Checked pickup coil. I bought another (used) diode unit ($10), but haven't put it in, having no reason to think that's really the problem. I guess I'll try that next though. One local mechanic thinks it's the valves. Though they're a tad overdue for adjustment, I'm getting none of the symptoms of too-tightness I've read about here. And though I can't recall his explanation well enough to repeat it, it didn't sound plausible at the time. I did a half-assed check of the carb, which looked fine, no clogged jets or other obvious problems. I don't know if it matters, but I got curious about what throttle positions I was in when the miss happens. At 5000 rpm in 5th I'm at 3/8 throttle, and at 5000 in 4th I'm at 5/16. I may pull the carb off and do a more thorough check, but the consensus seems to be that the problem's electrical. I bought a timing light and will check the timing but I don't see how that could be it. So the doctor tells the patient, "There's good news and bad news. The good news is, they've named a new disease after you...". 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[James W. Flower]

Michael and Robert-  I appreciate your taking the time to comment, and disagreement fuels thought.      The miss clears up on acceleration, even moderate acceleration, not just on fully open throttle.  So I'm not sure Michael's theory holds.  I admit I don't understand how the working of the carb changes with different throttle positions.  I guess I should get on the freeway and immediately go to a faster cruise than 5000, but at 5000 I'm doing 65, which is the speed limit here on the far northern Cali coast.  I do plan to pull the carb and go over it better than I did, now that I've found some good Youtube videos on the procedure (www.klrforum.com/showthread.php?t=19026 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_892881&feature=iv&src_vid=YUHbq07qcCk&v=kTdtrcPfb8k).-James On Jun 15, 2014, at 8:00 AM, Michael Martin wrote:

Full throttle enables more air to charge the cylinder and be compressed.  This makes the cylinder pressure higher when the spark plug is supposed to fire.  Higher cylinder pressure requires higher voltage across the spark plug gap to produce a spark. The temperatures of the ignition system components are just as hot when James opens his throttle wider, so the ignition system produces a good spark at these temps.  That's why I believe the ignition system is OK. Warmer temps could cause a rubber component to soften and allow an air leak to lean the mixture and produce a miss-fire.  The amount of air leakage would actually be reduced at larger throttle openings because the intake tract would then be closer to atmospheric pressure. Fuel flow capability checked out under idle conditions and is evidently good at wide open throttle. I think there's a mixture problem at part throttle. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY From: "RobertWichert robert@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com> To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com; Michael Martin ; James W. Flower Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???   Well, it might take more spark to ignite a lean mixture and the full throttle mixture may be richer, but set that aside. If full throttle fixes it, then it's not fuel related is it?  I mean, there is no doubt that it takes more fuel at full throttle. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/15/2014 7:10 AM, Michael Martin mmartin36@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:   The new clue wherein the miss disappears at full throttle indicates to me that the ignition system is NOT the problem.  Rationale: it takes a higher voltage to jump the spark plug gap at wider throttle openings. Mike Martin Louisville, KY From: "'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650]" DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com To: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Cc: nomad59@... Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2014 2:24 AM Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???  It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. .

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[James W. Flower]

Robert-  I get that these multimeter tests are less than dispositive.  But I'm dubious of the "heat-related" theory.  The motor's well warmed up before I hit the freeway, and themiss starts very soon after I accelerate to freeway speed, 1-1/2 to 2 miles.  I'll check again, but I'm pretty sure the temp needle doesn't budge.       Granted, brand new replacement electrical parts would be ideal, but a new CDI is $3XX.  It seemed to me that a 94-buck used CDI which meter-tested the same as mine would be unlikely to cause the exact same (and seemingly unusual) problem as mine.  My rationale is the same for the used replacement diode unit I bought but haven't installed yet. (Yes, the diode unit is outside the cases, clustered with the CDI.)  Just on price, I'm willing to replace the plug wire, but before I lay out all those bucks for more replacement electrical parts, I wish I could be sure what I have is an electrical, not a fuel delivery, problem. As to replicating the problem in the driveway: If I run the motor at 5000 for 2-3 minutes and the miss appears, what does that tell me?  If it doesn't appear, what does THAT tell me?  Plus, I'm reluctant to run the motor at 5000, for 2-3 minutes, when it's not moving.  Revving that high with no load seems unhealthy for the engine.  Am I wrong about that?   I dunno whether my local shops have and use oscilloscopes.  I've checked with the electrical guys there and they're stumped, at least from my descriptions.  One wanted to know if the miss happened at 5000 in fourth and third too.  It does.  I didn't check second, again because it seems unhealthy to run in 2d for the several minutes that would be necessary for a test.  In fourth at 5000 rpm the throttle is just slightly more closed that in fifth at 5000 (say 5/16 open in 4th and 3/8 open in 5th); I forgot to test third, but I will now that I've got the marks laid out. Another test I haven't been able to do is maintaining 5000 up a hill, to see if that changes the miss at all.  No hills around here that are long enough.Thanks- James On Jun 15, 2014, at 7:17 AM, RobertWichert wrote:

This may be heat related, James. That's always a possibility when something takes any time at all to develop.  If that is the case, the part may check out fine with an ohmmeter, but when hot, it goes bad. For this reason I suggest replacing, one at a time, the things you checked but did not replace.  And if that CDI unit was used, well, I would not trust it.  Sorry.  But if the problem was the same, well, it could be not the culprit. I would start with replacing the plug wire from the coil to the plug.  Then the coil (sorry).  I would then inspect mm by mm the primary wire(s) to the coil and verify that the primary voltage was reasonably OK running at those RPMs in the driveway.  Question - does it do it in the driveway?  That might give you a way to find the problem without a test ride.  Could save time. At that point I'd go into the case and (Shudder) replace the exciter and the pickup.  I'm not too sure of how those parts in the case get replaced, but if everything else is OK, they could cause the problem. A bad diode could cause this and diodes can fail under heat load, I'd guess.  So replacing that (with a new one, not with a used one) would be advisable before opening the case (it's on the outside, right?). I still think an old fashioned oscilloscope could help find the problem, primary or secondary any way. Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C HERS I/II CEPE CEA BPI CERTIFIED SF/MF GREEN POINT RATER +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 6/14/2014 11:24 PM, 'James W. Flower' jwflower53@... [DSN_KLR650] wrote:   Mark, thanks for asking. I'm playing with this in my spare time (work is the curse of the cycling class), learning a lot about the machine but not resolving the problem. Still have the miss. It first started on the freeway home from a very dusty, hot weather ride. The miss starts within two miles of when I start cruising at 4800-5000 rpm, whether I'm in 3d, 4th, or 5th. It's almost imperceptible at first, but after 4-5 miles it's bucking like a rodeo bull. Once it starts it keeps missing unless I back off to around 4000. Below that, it's smooth. NEW CLUE: the miss clears up completely when I accelerate, starts in when I level off, as long as I level off at 4500 or faster. Stuff I tried: New air filter (K&N, which I gather is not the best in dirt, but I had it handy). Switched to the gravity feed petcock. Checked fuel flow (one gallon in five minutes). Changed spark plug (the NGK Iridium one, thanks Fred); gap .033-.034". Checked plug wire resistor. Trimmed plug wire (just on general principles, it looked fine), dialectric-greased it. (I put the resistor back in first, then the little spring, then the screw; maybe it's supposed to be spring-resistor-screw, but the way I did it seems to work fine.) Replaced CDI unit (on a hunch, and because the consensus seems to be that the test drill in Clymer's is non-dispositive). Checked diode unit. Checked ignition coil. Checked exciter coil. Checked pickup coil. I bought another (used) diode unit ($10), but haven't put it in, having no reason to think that's really the problem. I guess I'll try that next though. One local mechanic thinks it's the valves. Though they're a tad overdue for adjustment, I'm getting none of the symptoms of too-tightness I've read about here. And though I can't recall his explanation well enough to repeat it, it didn't sound plausible at the time. I did a half-assed check of the carb, which looked fine, no clogged jets or other obvious problems. I don't know if it matters, but I got curious about what throttle positions I was in when the miss happens. At 5000 rpm in 5th I'm at 3/8 throttle, and at 5000 in 4th I'm at 5/16. I may pull the carb off and do a more thorough check, but the consensus seems to be that the problem's electrical. I bought a timing light and will check the timing but I don't see how that could be it. So the doctor tells the patient, "There's good news and bad news. The good news is, they've named a new disease after you...". Aagh! -James

[Jeff Saline]

#ygrps-yiv-1504380333 .ygrps-yiv-1504380333ygrp-photo-title { TEXT-ALIGN:center;WIDTH:75px;HEIGHT:15px;CLEAR:both;FONT-SIZE:smaller;OVERFLOW:hidden;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333ygrp-photo { BORDER-BOTTOM:black 1px solid;BORDER-LEFT:black 1px solid;BACKGROUND-COLOR:white;WIDTH:62px;BACKGROUND-REPEAT:no-repeat;BACKGROUND-POSITION:center 50%;HEIGHT:62px;BORDER-TOP:black 1px solid;BORDER-RIGHT:black 1px solid;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333photo-title A { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333photo-title A:active { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333photo-title A:hover { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333photo-title A:visited { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333attach-table DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333attach-row { CLEAR:both;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333attach-table DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333attach-row DIV { FLOAT:left;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 P { PADDING-BOTTOM:3px;PADDING-LEFT:0px;PADDING-RIGHT:0px;CLEAR:both;OVERFLOW:hidden;PADDING-TOP:15px;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333ygrp-file { WIDTH:30px;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333attach-table DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333attach-row DIV DIV A { TEXT-DECORATION:none;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333attach-table DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333attach-row DIV DIV SPAN { FONT-WEIGHT:normal;} #ygrps-yiv-1504380333 DIV.ygrps-yiv-1504380333ygrp-file-title { FONT-WEIGHT:bold;} James,   Any chance the carb vent line is causing the issue?   Maybe it is in a position at the speed you are holding steady is also putting some wind on the line and causing either a pressure area or kinking the line.   Just a thought since you seem to feel you've covered other areas.   Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 . . . . . . .       ____________________________________________________________ [b]The End of the "Made-In-China" Era[/b] The impossible (but real) technology that could make you impossibly rich. fool.com

[GMac999]

Jeff,

 

This sounds like the mid-range lean mixture, only worse.  I’m wondering if something happened with the needle or if the main jet is badly varnished?

 

GregM

 

[b]From:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, June 18, 2014 6:00 PM [b]To:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com; jwflower53@... [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_KLR650] HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???

 

James,

 

Any chance the carb vent line is causing the issue?

 

Maybe it is in a position at the speed you are holding steady is also putting some wind on the line and causing either a pressure area or kinking the line.

 

Just a thought since you seem to feel you've covered other areas.

 

Best,

Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650

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____________________________________________________________ [b]The End of the "Made-In-China" Era[/b] The impossible (but real) technology that could make you impossibly rich. fool.com

[James W. Flower]

Jeff, after getting this tip I checked the carb vent line.  I can't see how it could be solving the problem.  Some time ago I replaced the stock tubing (I forget why), with a stiffer type .  Its run is straight, no kinks, and it's not really out in the wind anywhere.Thanks though- James On Jun 18, 2014, at 3:59 PM, Jeff Saline wrote:

James, Any chance the carb vent line is causing the issue? Maybe it is in a position at the speed you are holding steady is also putting some wind on the line and causing either a pressure area or kinking the line. Just a thought since you seem to feel you've covered other areas. Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 .......    ____________________________________________________________ [b]The End of the "Made-In-China" Era[/b] The impossible (but real) technology that could make you impossibly rich. fool.com

[James W. Flower]

Sorry, that should have been, "...[u]causing[/u] the problem." On Jun 18, 2014, at 3:59 PM, Jeff Saline wrote:

James, Any chance the carb vent line is causing the issue? Maybe it is in a position at the speed you are holding steady is also putting some wind on the line and causing either a pressure area or kinking the line. Just a thought since you seem to feel you've covered other areas. Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 .......    ____________________________________________________________ [b]The End of the "Made-In-China" Era[/b] The impossible (but real) technology that could make you impossibly rich. fool.com

[Jeff Saline]

James,   My thought was if the carb vent wasn't venting that could cause a fuel starvation issue.  That is one of the reasons the "T" mod is so critical for these bikes when used in water crossings and wet conditions.   Glad yours looks good.   Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 On Wed, 18 Jun 2014 18:41:23 -0700 "James W. Flower" writes:

Jeff, after getting this tip I checked the carb vent line.  I can't see how it could be solving the problem.  Some time ago I replaced the stock tubing (I forget why), with a stiffer type .  Its run is straight, no kinks, and it's not really out in the wind anywhere. Thanks though- James On Jun 18, 2014, at 3:59 PM, Jeff Saline wrote: James,   Any chance the carb vent line is causing the issue?   Maybe it is in a position at the speed you are holding steady is also putting some wind on the line and causing either a pressure area or kinking the line.   Just a thought since you seem to feel you've covered other areas.   Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650 . . . . . . .       ____________________________________________________________ [b]The End of the "Made-In-China" Era[/b] The impossible (but real) technology that could make you impossibly rich. fool.com

 

[James W. Flower]

Greg-  Main jet (a size 148, which came on the bike) is clean and clear, I checked it.  I did do something kind of dumb.  I've always had some stumbling off idle, so when I checked the carb I did the .22 cent mod (drilled out hole in slide, put washer under needle, unplug and adjust idle air screw to taste).  I shouldn't have changed anything while diagnosing this high rpm miss.  I didn't expect the .22 cent mod to fix the problem, and it didn't.  It didn't make it worse either (and I still stumble from idle; maybe need a second washer under the needle, but it's irrelevant to the high rpm miss problem).Thanks- James On Jun 18, 2014, at 4:58 PM, GMac999 wrote:

Jeff, This sounds like the mid-range lean mixture, only worse.  I m wondering if something happened with the needle or if the main jet is badly varnished? GregM [b]From:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com]  [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, June 18, 2014 6:00 PM [b]To:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com; jwflower53@... [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_KLR650] HIGH RPM MISS .......... ANY UPDATES???   James, Any chance the carb vent line is causing the issue? Maybe it is in a position at the speed you are holding steady is also putting some wind on the line and causing either a pressure area or kinking the line. Just a thought since you seem to feel you've covered other areas. Best, Jeff Saline The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650.......    ____________________________________________________________ [b]The End of the "Made-In-China" Era[/b] The impossible (but real) technology that could make you impossibly rich. fool.com

[bmrbill]

Mark Ward, +1  This new email system has me confused.  As for the issue at hand, and I hope I'm replying to the group, or at least to James.  I'm an old school NAVAIR tech.  So I have to ask, "Is there anyone close that you could swap parts with to try and narrow down the problem?"