san diego tech day

[Jeff Saline]

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:16:43 -0800 Blake Sobiloff writes: SNIP

> Now, for extra credit, what are the viscosities in cSt at 100 dC of > 90- > weight gear oil and 40-weight motor oil? > -- > Blake Sobiloff > http://www.sobiloff.com/> > San Jose, CA (USA)

<><><><><><> <><><><><><> Blake, I'm gonna guess in public for the extra credit. : ) I'm guessing they are the same. No idea what the number will be but I'm thinking they are very close. Anybody else want to remove doubt? : ) Best, Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[Michael Martin]

--- Blake Sobiloff wrote:

> > Now, for extra credit, what are the viscosities in cSt at 100 dC of 90- > weight gear oil and 40-weight motor oil? > --

Hi Blake, SAE 40-wt motor oil: 12.5 to less than 16.3 cSt SAE 90-wt gear oil: 13.8 to http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ

[Blake Sobiloff]

On Jan 31, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Michael Martin wrote:

> SAE 40-wt motor oil: 12.5 to less than 16.3 cSt > > SAE 90-wt gear oil: 13.8 to > So there's an overlap in the ranges.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! (Jeff, you get a gold star but no extra credit. The point is that gear oil, which is what most manual transmissions use, is as thick as a thick 40-weight or a thin 50-weight motor oil. Our KLRs, like most other motorcycles with an engine and transmission that share the same sump, require either a 40-weight or 50-weight oil per the owner's manual. This is to ensure that the transmission gears have adequate viscosity to avoid pitting the gear faces. This is also why I don't like it when my motor oil shears down to a thick 30-weight, or even a thin 40-weight. As Paul Harvey says, "...and now you know the rest of the story." -- Blake Sobiloff http://www.sobiloff.com/> San Jose, CA (USA)

[Mike]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Blake Sobiloff wrote:

> > On Jan 31, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Michael Martin wrote: > > SAE 40-wt motor oil: 12.5 to less than 16.3 cSt > > > > SAE 90-wt gear oil: 13.8 to > > > So there's an overlap in the ranges. > > > Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! (Jeff, you get a gold > star but no extra credit. > > The point is that gear oil, which is what most manual transmissions > use, is as thick as a thick 40-weight or a thin 50-weight motor oil. > Our KLRs, like most other motorcycles with an engine and transmission > that share the same sump, require either a 40-weight or 50-weight oil > per the owner's manual. This is to ensure that the transmission gears > have adequate viscosity to avoid pitting the gear faces. > > This is also why I don't like it when my motor oil shears down to a > thick 30-weight, or even a thin 40-weight. > > As Paul Harvey says, "...and now you know the rest of the story." > -- > Blake Sobiloff > http://www.sobiloff.com/> > San Jose, CA (USA) >

Blake, I've recently sent a sample off for testing. I have the results of another test of a "premium" 20-50 motorcycle specific oil with about 2200 miles on it. It was sheared down about 25 percent in that time. The rider isn't a guy that abuses his engine. IMO the bottom line is to change sooner rather than later. all the best, Mike

[James Morrow Sr]

Has anyone done a shear test with synthetic, MOBIL 1 20W-50

On 2/1/08, Mike wrote: > > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com , Blake > Sobiloff wrote: > > > > On Jan 31, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Michael Martin wrote: > > > SAE 40-wt motor oil: 12.5 to less than 16.3 cSt > > > > > > SAE 90-wt gear oil: 13.8 to > > > > > So there's an overlap in the ranges. > > > > > > Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! (Jeff, you get a gold > > star but no extra credit. > > > > The point is that gear oil, which is what most manual transmissions > > use, is as thick as a thick 40-weight or a thin 50-weight motor oil. > > Our KLRs, like most other motorcycles with an engine and transmission > > that share the same sump, require either a 40-weight or 50-weight oil > > per the owner's manual. This is to ensure that the transmission gears > > have adequate viscosity to avoid pitting the gear faces. > > > > This is also why I don't like it when my motor oil shears down to a > > thick 30-weight, or even a thin 40-weight. > > > > As Paul Harvey says, "...and now you know the rest of the story." > > -- > > Blake Sobiloff > > http://www.sobiloff.com/> > > San Jose, CA (USA) > > > Blake, > > I've recently sent a sample off for testing. I have the results of > another test of a "premium" 20-50 motorcycle specific oil with about > 2200 miles on it. It was sheared down about 25 percent in that time. > The rider isn't a guy that abuses his engine. IMO the bottom line is > to change sooner rather than later. > > all the best, > > Mike > > > -- James Morrow Sr Union, MO '00' RT + dual plug + Bunkhouse '00' BUSA + 15hp '05' KLR650 + big fun factor [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Ed Dobson]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Blake Sobiloff wrote:

> > On Jan 31, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Michael Martin wrote: > > SAE 40-wt motor oil: 12.5 to less than 16.3 cSt > > > > SAE 90-wt gear oil: 13.8 to > > > So there's an overlap in the ranges. > > > Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! (Jeff, you get a gold > star but no extra credit. > > The point is that gear oil, which is what most manual transmissions > use, is as thick as a thick 40-weight or a thin 50-weight motor oil. > Our KLRs, like most other motorcycles with an engine and transmission > that share the same sump, require either a 40-weight or 50-weight oil > per the owner's manual. This is to ensure that the transmission gears > have adequate viscosity to avoid pitting the gear faces. > > This is also why I don't like it when my motor oil shears down to a > thick 30-weight, or even a thin 40-weight. > > As Paul Harvey says, "...and now you know the rest of the story." > -- > Blake Sobiloff > http://www.sobiloff.com/> > San Jose, CA (USA) >

Could there be more to avoiding gear pitting than just viscosity? Additives? Something else? Approx. twelve years has passed since the '96 SAE paper. Certainly oil technology has advanced. ED

[Michael Martin]

Anybody have an idea of how much viscosity is lost in manual transmission lube over the lifetime of the lube? Typically, this lube is never changed out. Mike Martin, Louisville, KY --- Blake Sobiloff wrote:

> On Jan 31, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Michael Martin wrote: > > SAE 40-wt motor oil: 12.5 to less than 16.3 cSt > > > > SAE 90-wt gear oil: 13.8 to > > > So there's an overlap in the ranges. > > > Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! (Jeff, you get a gold > star but no extra credit. > > The point is that gear oil, which is what most manual transmissions > use, is as thick as a thick 40-weight or a thin 50-weight motor oil. > Our KLRs, like most other motorcycles with an engine and transmission > that share the same sump, require either a 40-weight or 50-weight oil > per the owner's manual. This is to ensure that the transmission gears > have adequate viscosity to avoid pitting the gear faces. > > This is also why I don't like it when my motor oil shears down to a > thick 30-weight, or even a thin 40-weight. > > As Paul Harvey says, "...and now you know the rest of the story." > -- > Blake Sobiloff > http://www.sobiloff.com/> > San Jose, CA (USA) > >

____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs

[Blake Sobiloff]

On Feb 1, 2008, at 10:03 AM, Michael Martin wrote:

> Anybody have an idea of how much viscosity is lost in manual > transmission lube > over the lifetime of the lube? Typically, this lube is never > changed out.

You can check out the used oil analyses at bobistheoilguy.com. Some transmissions will shear the gear oil out of grade in as little as 25,000 miles, while others will let it last up to 60,000 miles. Along with the design of the particular transmission, a lot depends on the kind of use the transmission sees. There is no such thing as a "lifetime" oil. Well, OK, there is, but who's lifetime? For a manufacturer, "lifetime" is the duration of the warranty. Me? I change my ATF and gear oils every 30K. Most of the shop folks I've talked with say they usually see cars junked because the transmission goes, not because the engine gets tired. The manufacturers and service shops have been good at getting people to change the engine oil every 3K miles, but most folks never touch their transmission's oil/fluid, hence that the part of the drivetrain that usually ends up dying first. (Oh, and even worse is the case where someone buys a used car with an automatic transmission. Thinking they're doing something good for the car they change the ATF for the first time in the car's history. Well, the old stuff has burned and left a ton of deposits throughout the transmission, and the new fluid eagerly breaks all those deposits loose, clogging small passages and causing all sorts of problems that usually lead to a totaled transmission. Fortunately manual transmissions tend to absorb the abuse much better since they don't rely on tiny pressure passages, belts, etc.) -- Blake Sobiloff http://www.sobiloff.com/> San Jose, CA (USA)

[revmaaatin]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Blake Sobiloff wrote:

> > On Jan 31, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Michael Martin wrote: > > SAE 40-wt motor oil: 12.5 to less than 16.3 cSt > > > > SAE 90-wt gear oil: 13.8 to > > > So there's an overlap in the ranges. > > > Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! (Jeff, you get a

gold

> star but no extra credit. > > The point is that gear oil, which is what most manual

transmissions

> use, is as thick as a thick 40-weight or a thin 50-weight motor

oil.

> Our KLRs, like most other motorcycles with an engine and

transmission

> that share the same sump, require either a 40-weight or 50-weight

oil

> per the owner's manual. This is to ensure that the transmission

gears

> have adequate viscosity to avoid pitting the gear faces. > > This is also why I don't like it when my motor oil shears down to

a

> thick 30-weight, or even a thin 40-weight. > > As Paul Harvey says, "...and now you know the rest of the story." > -- > Blake Sobiloff > http://www.sobiloff.com/> > San Jose, CA (USA) >

Yes, Yes, Yes, But you would have to do oil analysis to be able to prove that point. cough. hack, grin. Just think, it only cost $16.50 extra/oil change to discover that, and sharing it the results, well, its priceless. Just like shake and bake, I helped. revmaaatin.

[revmaaatin]

--- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, "Mike" wrote:

> > --- In DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com, Blake Sobiloff wrote: > > > > On Jan 31, 2008, at 5:34 PM, Michael Martin wrote: > > > SAE 40-wt motor oil: 12.5 to less than 16.3 cSt > > > > > > SAE 90-wt gear oil: 13.8 to > > > > > So there's an overlap in the ranges. > > > > > > Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! (Jeff, you get a

gold

> > star but no extra credit. > > > > The point is that gear oil, which is what most manual

transmissions

> > use, is as thick as a thick 40-weight or a thin 50-weight motor

oil.

> > Our KLRs, like most other motorcycles with an engine and

transmission

> > that share the same sump, require either a 40-weight or 50-weight

oil

> > per the owner's manual. This is to ensure that the transmission

gears

> > have adequate viscosity to avoid pitting the gear faces. > > > > This is also why I don't like it when my motor oil shears down to

a

> > thick 30-weight, or even a thin 40-weight. > > > > As Paul Harvey says, "...and now you know the rest of the story." > > -- > > Blake Sobiloff > > http://www.sobiloff.com/> > > San Jose, CA (USA) > > > Blake, > > I've recently sent a sample off for testing. I have the results of > another test of a "premium" 20-50 motorcycle specific oil with about > 2200 miles on it. It was sheared down about 25 percent in that time. > The rider isn't a guy that abuses his engine. IMO the bottom line is > to change sooner rather than later. > > all the best, > > Mike >

Mike, That is a dirty underhanded deal you got going there--using data to support a scientific conclusion. What ever happened to conjecture and guess? By the way, what is the cost of an oil sample on the Left Coast? Here in the Dakota's it is ~$16.50 at the Cat-house and done overnight. revmaaatin. revmaaatin.