simple question from a newbie

[Bill Watson]

Jeff (jokerloco9@...) wrote: Has anyone done any experimentation to see about shimming any oil pressure relief springs (if any) in an effort to increase oil pressure a few pounds? Jeff, I thought about this as well a few months ago and quickly realized that it would not improve the situation at all. The factory spec for the relief valve is 74 psi +/- 11 psi! If you look at the oil pressure vs. rpm plot that I sent you, you ll see that when cold, my relief valve was opening around 70 psi, which is why the cold-start line has a kink in it where the relief valve starts to step in. The pump is maxed out at all other times. The relief valve is already closed and shimming it will not raise pressure. The only fix would be a higher-volume pump (I ve made them before and thought about it), but after some discussions with list members including Eagle Mike, it appears that no bikes truly suffer from low oil pressure . Just NO oil pressure. Those are the ones that are the problem. Mike Peplinski wrote: Using the under engine location, is this a simple drill and tap operation? Well, if you remove the plug, the case is already tapped for 10 x 1.25 thread. The trick of course is coming up with a sender, or combination of sender and fittings, to attach to that hole. Mike also wrote: Why not use an actual pressure gauge rather than a light? I, for one, am constantly checking my gauges It s just a personal choice. After you look at the plots I ve sent and see how wildly the pressure fluctuates, that s when I came to the conclusion that anything under 3-5 psi is a real problem, and all other values are good but meaningless. Jeff Saline wrote: I'm thinking the light might really be a fix to a problem that doesn't exist. : ) Fine point - very few KLR s make the list for an oil failure. But they do happen, albeit rarely. Jeff also wrote: Bill, I'm also interested in learning a bit more about the instrumentation you use to collect your data for this and the coolant testing you've done. Something tells me it's a bit more than a gauge and a pencil and paper while riding down the road. : ) Correct. I can send out example pix to anyone who asks (I m not website-savvy or I d throw a link up quickly) but the bottom line is that I have a Fluke Data recorder, that can record information from two thermocouples at any interval you ask for the entire ride. The other handy tool is one of these $40 voice recorders, you can speak into it for those occasions to be reviewed later, i.e., stuck in traffic from 8 min 30 sec to 10 min 10 sec or entered freeway at 21 minutes for later correlation with all the data that was taken. Bill Watson Phoenix __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

I'm very surprised oil pressure varies that much. I suppose the roller bearings are OK, but the camshaft rides in a hydraulic bearing just like a typical car engine, and 5 psi seems awful low. I have heard of some people scoring the cam journal. I'm guessing a mechanical oil pressure gauge might be easier to set up. Find a 90 degree fitting to the port to 4AN, run braided line to an autometer oil pressure gauge. If you have a heavy duty skid plate, I can't see how you could damage it, but anything is possible. Jeff A20 -----Original Message----- From: Bill Watson To: Jeff Saline ; ramachm12@...; motormind72@... Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:14:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Anyone Do The Oil Light Mod? Jeff (jokerloco9@...) wrote: "Has anyone done any experimentation to see about shimming any oil pressure relief springs (if any) in an effort to increase oil pressure a few pounds?" Jeff, I thought about this as well a few months ago and quickly realized that it would not improve the situation at all. The factory spec for the relief valve is 74 psi +/- 11 psi! If you look at the "oil pressure vs. rpm" plot that I sent you, you'll see that when cold, my relief valve was opening around 70 psi, which is why the cold-start line has a "kink" in it - where the relief valve starts to step in. The pump is "maxed out" at all other times. The relief valve is already closed and shimming it will not raise pressure. The only fix would be a higher-volume pump (I've made them before and thought about it), but after some discussions with list members including Eagle Mike, it appears that no bikes truly suffer from "low" oil pressure.. Just "NO" oil pressure. Those are the ones that are the problem. Mike Peplinski wrote: "Using the under engine location, is this a simple drill and tap operation?" Well, if you remove the plug, the case is already tapped for 10 x 1.25 thread. The trick of course is coming up with a sender, or combination of sender and fittings, to attach to that hole. Mike also wrote: "Why not use an actual pressure gauge rather than a light? I, for one, am constantly checking my gauges" It's just a personal choice. After you look at the plots I've sent and see how wildly the pressure fluctuates, that's when I came to the conclusion that anything under 3-5 psi is a real problem, and all other values are good - but meaningless. Jeff Saline wrote: "I'm thinking the light might really be a fix to a problem that doesn't exist. : )" Fine point - very few KLR's make the list for an oil failure. But they do happen, albeit rarely. Jeff also wrote: "Bill, I'm also interested in learning a bit more about the instrumentation you use to collect your data for this and the coolant testing you've done. Something tells me it's a bit more than a gauge and a pencil and paper while riding down the road. : )" Correct. I can send out example pix to anyone who asks (I'm not website-savvy or I'd throw a link up quickly) but the bottom line is that I have a Fluke Data recorder, that can record information from two thermocouples at any interval you ask for the entire ride. The other handy tool is one of these $40 voice recorders, you can speak into it for those occasions to be reviewed later, i.e., "stuck in traffic from 8 min 30 sec to 10 min 10 sec" or "entered freeway at 21 minutes". for later correlation with all the data that was taken. Bill Watson Phoenix __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Archive Quicksearch at: http://www.angelfire.com/ut/moab/klr650_data_search.html List sponsored by Dual Sport News at: www.dualsportnews.com List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html Member Map at: http://www.frappr.com/dsnklr650 Yahoo! Groups Links [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Krgrife@aol.com]

In a message dated 11/22/2005 12:28:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jokerloco9@... writes: I'm very surprised oil pressure varies that much. I suppose the roller bearings are OK, but the camshaft rides in a hydraulic bearing just like a typical car engine, and 5 psi seems awful low. I have heard of some people scoring the cam journal. For what its worth I haven't seen cam journals scored except when the bike was run low on oil. Its been explained to me that the KLR's oil system is a high volume, low pressure system which is the preferred way to go with roller bearing cranks. Kurt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Watson]

>>>I'm very surprised oil pressure varies that much.

No kidding, I was equally surprised. Once I saw that I even considered LOWERING the relief valve pressure so it wouldn't go so high when cold, but it's probably good that there's such a large driving force when the engine is first started, getting oil to locations ASAP.

>>>5 psi seems awful low. I have heard of some people scoring the cam journal.

All of my experience with cars says that's low too. But I couldn't ignore the fact that the stock KLR seems to have good lubrication-longevity, thus I didn't go nuts and make a larger pump. If we really do see normally-maintained bikes scoring the exhaust cam journals, another possible solution would be to run an external line over to that area and plumb it in as a second source with less restriction... but it doesn't seem needed from what I can tell so far.

>>>I'm guessing a mechanical oil pressure gauge might be easier to set up. Find a 90 degree fitting to the port to 4AN, run braided line to an autometer oil pressure gauge. If you have a heavy duty skid plate, I can't see how you could damage it, but anything is possible.

Agreed. Bill Watson Phoenix --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Bill Watson]

Kurt, thanks for chiming in - that is the same information I'm hearing so far as well. Bill Watson Phoenix -------------------------- Kurt wrote: For what its worth I haven't seen cam journals scored except when the bike was run low on oil. --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[jokerloco9@aol.com]

I haven't thought of the high volume system. I don't know the nature of the scored cam journals, but it is likely low oil, or not changing the oil enough. Thank You, Jeff Follin -----Original Message----- From: Krgrife To: Jokerloco9 Cc: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, 22 Nov 2005 4:17:34 PM Eastern Standard Time Subject: Re: [DSN_KLR650] Re: Anyone Do The Oil Light Mod? In a message dated 11/22/2005 12:28:24 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, jokerloco9@... writes: I'm very surprised oil pressure varies that much. I suppose the roller bearings are OK, but the camshaft rides in a hydraulic bearing just like a typical car engine, and 5 psi seems awful low. I have heard of some people scoring the cam journal. For what its worth I haven't seen cam journals scored except when the bike was run low on oil. Its been explained to me that the KLR's oil system is a high volume, low pressure system which is the preferred way to go with roller bearing cranks. Kurt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[April Neave & Norm Keller]

>Has anyone done any experimentation to see about >shimming any oil pressure

relief springs (if any) in an >effort to increase oil pressure a few pounds? Someone did some testing and indicated that the oil pressure relief valve is set around 70 psi if memory serves. He remarked that this seems strange since the operating pressure is much lower when the oil is hot as you will have noted from some of the recent posts. The oil pump relief valve acts to limit the maximum oil pressure by opening a port to dump oil back into the sump. As long as the relief valve's flow capacity is not exceeded, the oil pressure will not rise above the relief valve's wide open pressure. As you will infer, the relief valve has a range of opening between the cracking pressure where it just begins to open and maximum opening pressure where the relief valve is wide open. In theory the oil pressure relief valve will never reach the wide open position because this would only occur if the oil were more viscous than intended or that the oil pressure relief valve were designed under size. If memory serves the person who did the testing offered this theory. All the above aside, shimming the relief valve spring will act to increase the maximum oil pressure which wouldn't seem to be of any advantage sine the KLR operates far below this pressure. On the other hand, increasing the maximum oil pressure may have the potential to blow the seal over the end of the crankshaft. I would recommend against this as it has no advantage. "She" is calling me to dinner, Norm

[Jeff Saline]

On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 11:14:20 -0800 (PST) Bill Watson writes:

>>>>>HUGE MONSTER SNIP Bill Watson > Phoenix

Bill, Thanks very much for your screen grabs and plots about oil pressures and data acquisition methods. Very interesting and thought provoking. It sure is neat to be able to look at hard data and eliminate or confirm thoughts about temperature, pressure and performance. I can tell you really enjoy being innovative. Thanks again, Jeff Jeff Saline ABC # 4412 South Dakota Airmarshal Airheads Beemer Club www.airheads.org The Beautiful Black Hills of South Dakota 75 R90/6, 03 KLR650, 79 R100RT

[Thane Silliker]

Yes, I have. Smoked a cylinder head. Completely gone. Crankcase still had over 2 litres of oil in it. I was on I75 in Michigan. Potential causes was a stuck open oil bypass valve, and dirty oil. I don't know if an oil pressure guage would have helped for sure or not. But I really want to watch this in the future. Thane At 10:38 PM 22/11/2005, jokerloco9@... wrote:

> Perhaps we are searching for a solution to a problem that does not exist. > >Has anyone damaged an engine due to an oil related problem that was NOT >caused by operator error, such as low oil level or not changing the oil? > >Jeff A20

[Thane Silliker]

Bill Watson has done some excellent work on engine issues for the KLR. He sent me a fitting that fits into the bottom of the engine, and a calibrated scale for the water pressure gauge. Thanks for that, Bill. I have yet to do those mods, been busy lately, and having a house fire on Monday doesn't help. I think I may look into the banjo bolt option as it would be less exposed. I have a 0-30 psi gauge to use. Much higher range and it would be difficult to see those low oil pressures. Thane At 11:52 PM 21/11/2005, Bill Watson wrote:

>Thane, Jeff and Mark, > > About 6 months ago, I was discussing this with Norm Keller - Norm > wanted to test via a banjo fitting but hasn't gotten around to it > yet. However, I have tested through the bottom port as Thane > mentioned... Jeff, you're right about the spec of oil pressure at 4000 > rpm and 194F, but the manual does show this very location on page 4-14 of > the base manual as where to test.