two stupid things in two minutes!

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-03-07 4:29:41 AM Pacific Standard Time, MBAKARICH@... writes:

> > The theory that sounds reasonable to my dumbazz is that if you use > the doohickey adjustment procedure as per the manual, loosening the > holder bolt the two full turns, then the oem dh can get cockeyed on > the shaft. If you then try to retighten the holder the same two > turns back cw, you overstress the dh across the cut-out section of > the dh (because the dh is still cockeyed on the balancer shaft), and > the over stress causes it to fail. Or, the stress causes the machined > section of the dh to separate from the cut-out section along that > weld that holds the two sections of the dh together. And many of the > failures I've seen are along the weld. So the theory seems to be > supported by the evidence. > > That being said, I too have had a hand in a few dh parties, and have > seen them fail at less than 3000 miles, in KLRs that never had been > adjusted. So IMHO, there are multiple failure scenarios, some due to > a faulty procedure, and some due to faulty parts (dh and springs). > > I've also replaced about 8 oems that appeared to be fine, in bikes > with anywhere from 3k to 20k miles. Personally, I would do the > doohickey on any KLR that I owned, within the first couple hundred > miles, regardless of the year or mileage. YMMV. > > I picked up a parts motor that had suffered a catostrophic doohickey > failure. The rotor, and left side of the crankcase are too heavily > damaged to be reused, so bad things do happen when the dh fails. > > > MarkB > aka dumbazz >

Its a debatable issue. Outside of this group, in nine years of riding KLRs I've yet to find another KLR owner that has experienced a dohickey failure while it seems to be epidemic in these parts. The two versions of reality just don't match. Until I've seen evidence otherwise, I'll stick to my guns - dohickey problems are self inflicted by either not adjusting or over torqueing the adjuster bolt. Of course, tomorrow mine could go south proving me wrong, but with 52,000 dohickey trouble free miles I just don't see it happening. Until then, I don't buy into the idea of the dohickey being so problematic that you must tear your engine apart to replace it for preventive maintenance. As a case in point, for all the advice given Dr. Frazier only added to modification to be able to see if the dohickey spring was broke before making the adjustment. He made it around the world without regretting the decision not to replace his dohickey. Based upon his research, in Part 1 of his four part series for Motorcycle Consumer News Dr. Frazier stated, "Bought off the showroom floor, with some softbags thrown over the back, there is no reason to believe the KLR could not be successfully ridden over our hypothetical (around the world) ride." Now, if the dohickey was that problematic, do you think an experienced traveler such as Dr. Frazier would have taken the risk of cataclysmic failure in the middle of nowhere? Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Krgrife@aol.com]

In a message dated 3/7/04 10:23:20 AM Central Standard Time, kdxkawboy@... writes:

> As a case in point, for all the advice given Dr. Frazier only added to > modification to be able to see if the dohickey spring was broke before > making the > adjustment. He made it around the world without regretting the decision not > to > replace his dohickey.

Elden Carl helped Dr. Frazier set up the bike and the inspection hole was his idea and development. He installed an Eagle Doohickey and spring in Frazier's bike so it was not the stock doohickey and spring that went round the world. Regards, Kurt Grife [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[bigfatgreenbike]

MBAKARICH@... wrote:

>The theory that sounds reasonable to my dumbazz is that if you use >the doohickey adjustment procedure as per the manual, loosening the >holder bolt the two full turns, then the oem dh can get cockeyed on >the shaft. >

I've never believed this. The stock doohickey is very sloppy, but I can't imagine it is anywhere sloppy enough that it could bind crooked on the shaft. Remember "working clearance" is around .001" to .003", and the worst stock doohickey fit I've seen was maybe .010" or .015". No way is a collar 1/4" deep going to bind on the shaft when it only has .015" slop AND is covered in motor oil.

> If you then try to retighten the holder the same two >turns back cw, you overstress the dh across the cut-out section of >the dh (because the dh is still cockeyed on the balancer shaft), and >the over stress causes it to fail. Or, the stress causes the machined >section of the dh to separate from the cut-out section along that >weld that holds the two sections of the dh together. And many of the >failures I've seen are along the weld. So the theory seems to be >supported by the evidence. >

Most of the failures I've seen were the core shattering. If it was the "binding" theory, the welds would be breaking. Has anyone ever been able to reproduce a binding stock doohickey? IE slide the stock piece outboard on the shaft the equivalent of maybe 3mm and then see if you can jam it on the shaft? And why are the latest models more prone to doohickey problems? I don't think owners are getting either smarter OR dumber on average, but KHI having problems with heat treat on a few doohickey batches is entirely possible. Or they've been using the same tooling since the last doohickey "update" and now the clearances are getting really sloppy. -- Devon Brooklyn, NY A15-Z '01 KLR650 '81 SR500 cafe racer "The truth's not too popular these days....." Arnold Schwarzenneger, in The Running Man

[wannabsmooth1]

Devon, At the last tech day, we did have an early one that had failed. I'm not absolutely positive on all the factors of the later ones failing more, but the welded up part does not help. There are a lot more post '96 bikes out there, in my limited experience, too. I don't necessarily agree that the early "cush drive" was designed to limit load on the lever. I think it was so they could use the same sprocket front and back, and a REALLY cheap way to assemble stuff. If you guys that own high mileage early bike take apart the drive for the balancer system, you are in for a surprise. The end of the pins inside the springs will be chipped, and the sprockets where the pins hit will be chipped. One of the first things I learned in a machine shop was not to hit 2 hard surfaces against each other like that. Pieces chip/break off. I have seen a stock lever that showed where the starter gear had hit it. It was on Russell's (Scott?) bike, at one of the recent tech days. It was also bent, but the boss had not broken. It obviously had a very good weld. When I have time (like that'll happen in the next month), I'm going to make a fixture, and see what torque value makes about 10 stock levers fail. Then, I'll take a scrap one of mine (cosmetic flaw), and see where it fails on the torque scale. All the best! Mike --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, bigfatgreenbike wrote:

> > > MBAKARICH@Y... wrote: > > >The theory that sounds reasonable to my dumbazz is that if you

use

> >the doohickey adjustment procedure as per the manual, loosening

the

> >holder bolt the two full turns, then the oem dh can get cockeyed

on

> >the shaft. > > > I've never believed this. The stock doohickey is very sloppy, but

I

> can't imagine it is anywhere sloppy enough that it could bind

crooked on

> the shaft. Remember "working clearance" is around .001" to .003",

and

> the worst stock doohickey fit I've seen was maybe .010" or .015".

No way

> is a collar 1/4" deep going to bind on the shaft when it only

has .015"

> slop AND is covered in motor oil. > > > If you then try to retighten the holder the same two > >turns back cw, you overstress the dh across the cut-out section of > >the dh (because the dh is still cockeyed on the balancer shaft),

and

> >the over stress causes it to fail. Or, the stress causes the

machined

> >section of the dh to separate from the cut-out section along that > >weld that holds the two sections of the dh together. And many of

the

> >failures I've seen are along the weld. So the theory seems to be > >supported by the evidence. > > > Most of the failures I've seen were the core shattering. If it was

the

> "binding" theory, the welds would be breaking. Has anyone ever

been able

> to reproduce a binding stock doohickey? IE slide the stock piece > outboard on the shaft the equivalent of maybe 3mm and then see if

you

> can jam it on the shaft? > > And why are the latest models more prone to doohickey problems? I

don't

> think owners are getting either smarter OR dumber on average, but

KHI

> having problems with heat treat on a few doohickey batches is

entirely

> possible. Or they've been using the same tooling since the last > doohickey "update" and now the clearances are getting really

sloppy.

> > -- > Devon > Brooklyn, NY > > A15-Z '01 KLR650 > '81 SR500 cafe racer > > "The truth's not too popular these days....." > > Arnold Schwarzenneger, in The Running Man

[bigfatgreenbike]

I always thought the cush drive stuff was to make the entire assembly last longer, especially to ease wear on the chain and sprockets, by limiting shock loading. And they designed the early stamped doohickey based on the load that the cushioned sprockets would deliver. The sprockets started breaking, then they changed those. Then they redesigned the doohickey sometime after that, and if the things had good metallurgy and an excellent weld (like the KHI prototype must have) nobody would even be talking about this. I'm just suprised, since tightening the bolt on a cockeyed doohickey would load that crap weld in the worst possible direction, that there aren't a LOT more broken welds. Most broken doohickeys I've seen had the core break into several pieces, leaving a piece of it attached (by the weld) to the stamped plate. I would love to see how much force it takes to bust an average stock doohickey. I would also like to see a test rig made where you bang a shaft inside a clamped-down stock doohickey, delivering a calculated force to the flats on the inside of the core. See how long (approximately how many impacts) it takes to break the core apart. Then try it with an Eagle lever. Devon eaglemike@... wrote:

>Devon, > >At the last tech day, we did have an early one that had failed. I'm >not absolutely positive on all the factors of the later ones failing >more, but the welded up part does not help. There are a lot more >post '96 bikes out there, in my limited experience, too. I don't >necessarily agree that the early "cush drive" was designed to limit >load on the lever. I think it was so they could use the same >sprocket front and back, and a REALLY cheap way to assemble stuff. > >If you guys that own high mileage early bike take apart the drive >for the balancer system, you are in for a surprise. The end of the >pins inside the springs will be chipped, and the sprockets where the >pins hit will be chipped. One of the first things I learned in a >machine shop was not to hit 2 hard surfaces against each other like >that. Pieces chip/break off. > >I have seen a stock lever that showed where the starter gear had hit >it. It was on Russell's (Scott?) bike, at one of the recent tech >days. It was also bent, but the boss had not broken. It obviously >had a very good weld. > >When I have time (like that'll happen in the next month), I'm going >to make a fixture, and see what torque value makes about 10 stock >levers fail. Then, I'll take a scrap one of mine (cosmetic flaw), >and see where it fails on the torque scale. > >All the best! >Mike >--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, bigfatgreenbike > wrote: > > >>MBAKARICH@Y... wrote: >> >> >> >>>The theory that sounds reasonable to my dumbazz is that if you >>> >>> >use > > >>>the doohickey adjustment procedure as per the manual, loosening >>> >>> >the > > >>>holder bolt the two full turns, then the oem dh can get cockeyed >>> >>> >on > > >>>the shaft. >>> >>> >>> >>I've never believed this. The stock doohickey is very sloppy, but >> >> >I > > >>can't imagine it is anywhere sloppy enough that it could bind >> >> >crooked on > > >>the shaft. >>

-- Devon Brooklyn, NY A15-Z '01 KLR650 '81 SR500 cafe racer "The truth's not too popular these days....." Arnold Schwarzenneger, in The Running Man

[dooden]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, kdxkawboy@a... wrote:

> As a case in point, for all the advice given Dr. Frazier only added to > modification to be able to see if the dohickey spring was broke

before making the

> adjustment. He made it around the world without regretting the

decision not to

> replace his dohickey. Based upon his research, in Part 1 of his four

part

> series for Motorcycle Consumer News Dr. Frazier stated, "Bought off

the showroom

> floor, with some softbags thrown over the back, there is no reason

to believe

> the KLR could not be successfully ridden over our hypothetical

(around the

> world) ride." Now, if the dohickey was that problematic, do you

think an

> experienced traveler such as Dr. Frazier would have taken the risk

of cataclysmic

> failure in the middle of nowhere? > > Pat > G'ville, Nv

Honestly if somebody was such a experienced traveler, and had knowledge that such a small part can cause such damage, but yet can be replaced for pocket changed compaired to a round the world trip cost figure, I would have to ask just how much sense that person really has or the reason one would take such a risk. I replaced mine, for two reasons, one being with such a reported problem at least here on this list, and for the small amount of money it gave me a chance to open up this engine and just inspect and know I put it back together correctly for that as Jake says "Piece of mind". My KLR is more than just a motorcycle, its "my" motorcycle and will be for many many more years I am pretty sure of this, even though I have been looking at more dirt worthy machines, "Beater Class" that I can take out and pound the snot outta when I have the urge, since the KLR tends to kick back when I push it like a smaller dirt bike. Do what makes ya feel good, but if your doohickey goes south on ya, please dont come back here and whine about it folks, you have been informed of a possible problem area, a solution has been delivered (thanks Jake) and method of replacement has been laid out in a super simple easy format for even a non-mechanic to read and follow. Now lets move on to the oil strainer screen subject... Dooden A15 Green Ape

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-03-07 9:50:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, Krgrife@... writes:

> > Elden Carl helped Dr. Frazier set up the bike and the inspection hole was > his > idea and development. He installed an Eagle Doohickey and spring in > Frazier's bike so it was not the stock doohickey and spring that went round > the world. > Regards, > Kurt Grife > >

Sorry Kurt, but in the MCN articles there is no mention of any dohickey replacement - I've read them thrice today looking. If Frazier doesn't include them in his list of parts, or make any mention other than the spring is know to break, I don't see how any one can claim he used the part. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[wannabsmooth1]

Pat, I meant to send to the list, so this is a repeat: I spoke to Elden today, face to face, and this is the TRUTH. Elden spent 2 days preeping the Dr's bike for the ride. Crediting the doctor with the knowledge and experience of being able to do this at that time would be an error. Elden did put in the inspection hole for him. At that time, there was NO AFTERMARKET LEVER available. Elden had asked me to make them, but this was not complete (the quantity we discussed made it too expensive at that point - less than 5 parts). Elden had been discuusing the project with Kurt, and Kurt knew I was looking at the best way to make them. BTW, IIRC, Kurt has first hand knowledge of an engine damaged by a lever failure. When the Dr returned from his ride, he called Elden and asked him to install an Eagle lever FOR HIM (not help him or advise him). Elden declined, as he was burnt out from helping people prep their bikes. I can understand why Kurt would think there was an Eagle lever in the bike. All the best, Mike Eagle Mfg & Eng San Diego, Ca.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, kdxkawboy@a... wrote: > In a message dated 2004-03-07 9:50:27 AM Pacific Standard Time, > Krgrife@a... writes: > > > > > Elden Carl helped Dr. Frazier set up the bike and the inspection hole was > > his > > idea and development. He installed an Eagle Doohickey and spring in > > Frazier's bike so it was not the stock doohickey and spring that went round > > the world. > > Regards, > > Kurt Grife > > > > > > Sorry Kurt, but in the MCN articles there is no mention of any dohickey > replacement - I've read them thrice today looking. If Frazier doesn't include them > in his list of parts, or make any mention other than the spring is know to > break, I don't see how any one can claim he used the part. > > Pat > G'ville, Nv > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[aboyandhisdawg]

IIRC, i read that Dr. Frazir also never changed his oil during the course of his global circumnavigaion. if it were anyone else advocating ~23,000 miles between oil changes *and* ignoring the potential problem with the Doohickey, i suspect they'd be labeled a fool. personally, i'm curious if the doctor retired that bike at the end of the trip, or if it's still in service as a daily driver. i recall something a month or two ago about a KLR on a south american trip which was sidelined with a dead doohickey in the middle of the trip. fixer KLR A1 #1187 Lost Wages, NV

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, kdxkawboy@a... wrote: > As a case in point, for all the advice given Dr. Frazier only added to > modification to be able to see if the dohickey spring was broke before making the > adjustment. He made it around the world without regretting the decision not to > replace his dohickey. Based upon his research, in Part 1 of his four part > series for Motorcycle Consumer News Dr. Frazier stated, "Bought off the showroom > floor, with some softbags thrown over the back, there is no reason to believe > the KLR could not be successfully ridden over our hypothetical (around the > world) ride." Now, if the dohickey was that problematic, do you think an > experienced traveler such as Dr. Frazier would have taken the risk of cataclysmic > failure in the middle of nowhere? > > Pat > G'ville, Nv

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-03-07 8:58:58 PM Pacific Standard Time, eaglemike@... writes:

> > Pat, > > I meant to send to the list, so this is a repeat: > > I spoke to Elden today, face to face, and this is the TRUTH. > > Elden spent 2 days preeping the Dr's bike for the ride. Crediting > the doctor with the knowledge and experience of being able to do > this at that time would be an error. Elden did put in the inspection > hole for him. At that time, there was NO AFTERMARKET LEVER > available. Elden had asked me to make them, but this was not > complete (the quantity we discussed made it too expensive at that > point - less than 5 parts). > > Elden had been discuusing the project with Kurt, and Kurt knew I was > looking at the best way to make them. BTW, IIRC, Kurt has first hand > knowledge of an engine damaged by a lever failure. > > When the Dr returned from his ride, he called Elden and asked him to > install an Eagle lever FOR HIM (not help him or advise him). Elden > declined, as he was burnt out from helping people prep their bikes. > > I can understand why Kurt would think there was an Eagle lever in > the bike. > > All the best, > > Mike >

And in his MCN articles Dr. Frazier stated, "To aid with our modifications we enlisted the help of "Mr KLR", aka Elden Carl of El Cajon and a group of volunteers solicited from the KLR Internet group (DSN-KLR650@yahoogroups.com) sponsored by Dual SPort News. So the good doctor did not claim to prep his bike on his own. Since he took the time to credit Elden with the Balancer Spring Inspection Window I find it equally significant that in none of the three prep articles, or two follow-up articles, does he say one word of dohickeys creating a reliability problem. I understand a busted spring/dohickey can crater an engine, but I still say that when properly maintained the stock dohickey is more than good enough to get the job done, and has since '87. I don't see any reason to replace mine. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]