[dsn_klr650] nklr - klr riders who have served or are servi

[Keith Saltzer]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Judson D. Jones" wrote:

> > --- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Saltzer"

wrote:

> > > > > Counter steering is the only way to steer a bike going down the > > road. If someone doesn't know about it yet, that someone is

lagging

> > behind in very important knowledge about how to control a bike,

and

> > therefore are much more prone to having an accident when they're

in a

> > situation that requires them to change direction asap. They will > > also not be able to ride twisty roads that fast at all. > I think somebody has already pointed out that it is possible to

ride a

> motorcycle no-handed. I can't recall ever having negotiated a

series of

> twisties no-handed (I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid) but I have

ridden down

> the road no-handed, sometimes for miles (maybe I'm stupid after

all), changed

> lanes, and run through some sweepers at between 50-65 mph, steering

only

> by weight shifts and a knee to the tank. Of course, that's on a

BMW... Yes, I have too. (so maybe I too am stupid) But my point is that even though you are not touching the bars, the bike is still countersteering as soon as you initiate the lean, or shift of weight. Then after the countersteer to get it turned, it turns towards the direction of the turn, just like when your holding onto the bars. I just went outside and tried this on my boys bike. I got going down a straight hill, let go of the bars, stabled myself and the bike into a straight line, looked right at the bars, then shifted my weight/leaned to the right. Immediately the bars turned left, for just a split second, then they turned right. Then I tried it on flat ground going as slow as I could peddle no handed without falling off. I went pretty damn slow actually. The bars and front wheel wound turn immediately to the direction I shifted my weight/leaned. So what I am saying is that on a bike, at speed, although you can get it to changed directions while not holding onto the bars, and only shifting your weight and leaning, the bike is not turning that sharply at all, and it is still countersteering to initiate the slight turn. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[Alan L Henderson]

Keith Saltzer wrote:

> >>Have you ever seen a >>person ride a bicycle around the block without ever touching the > > handle > >>bars? I have. I've done it. Explain how that is possible. > > > I have too. The bicycle is moving at a slow speed, and the wheels > are much lighter, so there is a lot less gyroscopic effect to > overcome. Get going down a hill though and it gets much harder to do > that. > > You can also do the same thing on a motorcycle. It's just damn hard > to do it slowly cause of the need to balance all that weight. But > while going down the road at speed, have you ever watched what your > front end does when your not holding onto the bars and you quickly > lean over to one side or the other? On a bike, or motorcycle? If > I'm not mistaken, the bars will jerk into a countersteer position > first, then they will turn towards the direction of the lean and the > bike will turn. Of course the faster you are going, the harder it is > to get the bike to turn while just moving your weight around on top > of the bike. >

snip!

> MrMoose > A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

I actually agree with most of what you said. I'm afraid the only way to prove any of it one way or another would be to put a data logger on a KLR with strain gauges on the bars, position sensor on the steering and probably a speed sensor. Oh ya, a lean sensor and possibly some accelerometers. I believe that Keith Code teaches a racing school, correct me if I'm wrong, and has a justifiable agenda. He is teaching people to race and most of the time they would use counter steer to make the sudden changes in direction needed for racing. Going through a S bend at 100mph comes to mind. The one thing that hasn't been brought up yet by us or Code is the fact that when you shift your weight to initiate a turn you also have your hands on the bars and can follow the turn. Does anyone have a data logger with 20 or so inputs and all the appropriate sensors that MrMoose and I can borrow for awhile? Alan Henderson A13 Iowa

[Conall]

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, Have you ever seen a

> person ride a cycle around the block without ever touching the

handle

> bars?

Yep, my neighbor used to have a unicycle. Conall-look ma no hands

[Keith Saltzer]

> I actually agree with most of what you said. I'm afraid the only

way to

> prove any of it one way or another would be to put a data logger on

a

> KLR with strain gauges on the bars, position sensor on the steering

and

> probably a speed sensor. Oh ya, a lean sensor and possibly some > accelerometers.

I don't need all of that gadgetry to see and feel that when the bike is moving faster than about 5 mph, if I turn the bars to the left, the bike falls over and goes to the right. That's it. There's really nothing else that needs to be known in the riders mind as far as which way to turn the bars when they want to turn. Unfortunately it's not in the minds of most riders as the results of those studying crashes have shown that most of the riders never even tried to steer around an object. If they knew how a bike's steering operated, what to do in an evasive emergency, and had practiced it, it would have come quickly and naturally. Riders that do not know how to steer a motorcycle are NOT safe riders.

> I believe that Keith Code teaches a racing school, correct me if

I'm

> wrong, and has a justifiable agenda. He is teaching people to race

and

> most of the time they would use counter steer to make the sudden

changes

> in direction needed for racing. Going through a S bend at 100mph

comes

> to mind.

Keith Code is a Motorcycle RIDING instructor and has been for many years now. He teaches people how to ride the bike. He teaches many very valuable things about motorcycles that people just don't know, or would have never thought of. Just about everything he teaches in his book Twist of the Wrist is used on the road. If you understand the bike and how it operates, then you will be a much better rider and will be safer. Obviously you need to know how to ride the bike, and understand everything about the bike and how it operates. Keith knows this and teaches his students the how's why's and what's, and then some of them go racing. I'm willing to bet that the majority of his students do not race. Riders that do not know how to steer a motorcycle are NOT safe riders.

> The one thing that hasn't been brought up yet by us or Code is the

fact

> that when you shift your weight to initiate a turn you also have

your

> hands on the bars and can follow the turn.

I don't know exactly what you are saying here, but you don't "shift your weight" to initiate a turn. You turn the handle bars to do that. If you shift your weight while your turning at the same time, you get the front end wobbling around at times, and Keith teaches to avoid this as well. Riders that do not know how to steer a motorcycle are NOT safe riders. MrMoose A8 (Barbie and Ken special)

[denvowell@aol.com]

For a good example of counter steering and leaning watch this vidio.Imagein your riding the bike and observe what your body dose. http://www.gormanonline.com/permitted/DealsGapOverlookToXroads.wmv Dennis A18 The Big Red 1 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-12-13 9:36:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, k.saltzer@... writes:

> > Counter steering is the only way to steer a bike going down the > road. If someone doesn't know about it yet, that someone is lagging > behind in very important knowledge about how to control a bike, and > therefore are much more prone to having an accident when they're in a > situation that requires them to change direction asap. They will > also not be able to ride twisty roads that fast at all. > > MrMoose > A8 (Barbie and Ken special) > >

I think the big problem is that people confuse counter balancing against the centrifugal forces with steering the bike. They fail to realize that due to the simple biomechanics of the human body that as they lean to the inside they weight the inside bar, or start pulling back on the outside bar, creating the subtle coutersteering motion required to initiate the turn. While I think Keith Code's BS bike is a great way to demonstrate this, I think he is missing the boat by not having set this up on a dirt bike and used the dirt to demonstrate that leaning does not work. Even if you did manage to initiate a turn with body lean you would fall because as soon as the rear started sliding and you couldn't countersteer to keep control .... Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-12-13 10:23:21 AM Pacific Standard Time, k.saltzer@... writes:

> > I have too. The bicycle is moving at a slow speed, and the wheels > are much lighter, so there is a lot less gyroscopic effect to > overcome. Get going down a hill though and it gets much harder to do > that. > >

The secret is, that since the steering stem creates a hinge, as you lean the bike to the inside the gyroscopic effect of the front wheel causes it to pull itself upright as the bike leans, just as if you pushed on the inside handle bar, creating the subtle countersteer required to initiate the corner. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[kdxkawboy@aol.com]

In a message dated 2004-12-13 5:32:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, k.saltzer@... writes:

> > I don't need all of that gadgetry to see and feel that when the bike > is moving faster than about 5 mph, if I turn the bars to the left, > the bike falls over and goes to the right. That's it. There's > really nothing else that needs to be known in the riders mind as far > as which way to turn the bars when they want to turn. Unfortunately > it's not in the minds of most riders as the results of those studying > crashes have shown that most of the riders never even tried to steer > around an object. If they knew how a bike's steering operated, what > to do in an evasive emergency, and had practiced it, it would have > come quickly and naturally. Riders that do not know how to steer a > motorcycle are NOT safe riders. > >

Rather than fixate on a speed, the better description is to say that once you have reached a speed where the bike has gained a balance of its own due to its forward velocity you can start countersteering. Before the bike gains its own balance you must turn the bars in the direction you want to go. That is something you can feel instead of looking at the speedo to know when. Pat G'ville, Nv [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[scttotis]

Bkgnd, I am new to motorcycles, but rode a lot of bicycles . When I read this thread about the countersteering, it sounded untrue, but looked at the bars the next time I was on the MC, and sure enough was doing it . It's just one of those things we learned by feel and not by calculation. Tell you what though, I am going to practice countersteer initiated leans at every opportunity.

--- In DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com, kdxkawboy@a... wrote: > In a message dated 2004-12-13 5:32:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, > k.saltzer@c... writes: > > > > > I don't need all of that gadgetry to see and feel that when the bike > > is moving faster than about 5 mph, if I turn the bars to the left, > > the bike falls over and goes to the right. That's it. There's > > really nothing else that needs to be known in the riders mind as far > > as which way to turn the bars when they want to turn. Unfortunately > > it's not in the minds of most riders as the results of those studying > > crashes have shown that most of the riders never even tried to steer > > around an object. If they knew how a bike's steering operated, what > > to do in an evasive emergency, and had practiced it, it would have > > come quickly and naturally. Riders that do not know how to steer a > > motorcycle are NOT safe riders. > > > > > > Rather than fixate on a speed, the better description is to say that once you > have reached a speed where the bike has gained a balance of its own due to > its forward velocity you can start countersteering. Before the bike gains its > own balance you must turn the bars in the direction you want to go. That is > something you can feel instead of looking at the speedo to know when. > > Pat > G'ville, Nv > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Peter Meilstrup]

I'm going to be WAY controversial and assert that the "countersteering does not work at very slow speeds" claim is also bunk. The principle works all the way down to zero. Try this: ride through a puddle, then make tight turns at slow speed. Then go back and look at your tire tracks. What you'll see is that your front tire track turns to the outside breifly before it starts curving into your turn. -pm

On Mon, 13 Dec 2004 22:43:38 EST, kdxkawboy@... wrote: > > Rather than fixate on a speed, the better description is to say that once you > have reached a speed where the bike has gained a balance of its own due to > its forward velocity you can start countersteering. Before the bike gains its > own balance you must turn the bars in the direction you want to go. That is > something you can feel instead of looking at the speedo to know when. > > Pat > G'ville, Nv > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > List sponsored by Dual Sport News at www.dualsportnews.com > List FAQ courtesy of Chris Krok at: www.bigcee.com/klr650faq.html > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > >