nklr: knee injury

[leroy_cope@hotmail.com]

--- In DSN_klr650@y..., jayed36@y... wrote:

> Ok, I picked up some Mobil 1 15W50 for an oil change. I know the > sight glass is incorrect, what is the proper amount for an A15? 2 > quarts + 10 ounces? > > Jeff > San Bruno

Never did agree with the self appointed experts. I use the top of the sight glass. works for me. Roy Cope

[Clinton Kendall]

Who do you trust, the engineer who designed the motor, the technician who measured the oil quantity (undoubtedly using the window), or the writer who produced the manual? I have owned thirty+ motorcycles and find that discrepancies between specified oil quantity and level are common. Use the window. Clint Y2K KLR with 12,000 happy miles

[marcclarke@unforgettable.com]

As an engineer who has had more than a little experiences with both technicians and technical writers, I trust them both. You may have forgotten draftsmen and cost-controlling junior managers. Kawasaki uses the head itself to carry the rotating cam rather than using real (more expensive) bearings. This means that lubrication to the very top of the head is utterly critical for engine longevity. The engineer very carefully designed the engine and the amount of oil in the engine to keep the ultra-sensitive top end surfaces properly lubricated. The engineer specified the amount of oil necessary to keep the engine running for longest life. That specification was passed to the draftsman and put onto the engine case. That specification was passed to the technical writer, who correctly put it into the manual. Technical writers very carefully cross check information like that. They do not invent information to put into manuals. The 2.5 liters is right. The engineer told the draftsman where to put the sight glass. The draftsman screwed up. The expensive jigs and fixtures for the cases were made up. The big tooling dollars were spent. At this point, someone (most likely a technician) noticed that when he put 2.5 liters in the engine the sight glass was in the wrong place. The technician told the engineer. The engineer went ballistic. The engineer went to the cost-cutting junior manager and told him that he had to spend the big bucks again to remake the jigs and fixtures for the case to put the sight glass in the right place. The junior cost cutting manager instantly realized that he would not get his next promotion if he overshot his development budget. Reflexively, he reprimanded the engineer and the technician who found the problem. He looked at the fact that both the case itself and the manual correctly documented the proper amount of oil so there was in fact not a problem at all. Besides, he assured his boss, ! no one ever looks at the sight glass anyway. The sight glass was left as it was. No new fixtures or jigs were made. Tooling dollars were not spent. The budget was not blown. The engineer and the technician had their careers damaged. The junior manager was rewarded for his good judgement and promoted. Now I do not know that this is what really happened at Kawasaki, but I have seen it happen time after time in real life. Next time you adjust your valves, take a very close look at the machined, bearing-less surfaces in which the camshafts turn. Think about how many times per second those cams turn. Think about what happens when those surfaces are starved of a steady supply of lubricant. Think about the fact that how much lubrication those critical machined surfaces get depends on the oil level in the engine. It is your motorcycle. It is your engine. Oil is cheap. New heads or new motorcycles are quite expensive. It is your paycheck. It is your bank account. It is your decision. -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA ----Original Message-----

>From: "Clinton Kendall" >To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: Oil amount? >Date: Thursday, September 20, 2001 23:55 > >Who do you trust, the engineer who designed the motor, the technician >who measured the oil quantity (undoubtedly using the window), or the >writer who produced the manual? I have owned thirty+ motorcycles and >find that discrepancies between specified oil quantity and level are >common. Use the window. > >Clint >Y2K KLR with 12,000 happy miles >

[Bogdan Swider]

> He looked at the fact that both the case itself and the manual correctly > documented the proper amount of oil so there was in fact not a problem at > all. Besides, he assured his boss, ! > no one ever looks at the sight glass anyway. The sight glass was left as > it was. >

And here I thought nothing new could be learned pertaining to this controversy especially from someone in Loveland. Marc, yours is easily the best post I've read on this old, regularly reappearing thread and I've read at least a hundred. Strange how ole Elden's views are proven right as time passes. Impressed, Bogdan

[MERK]

So.....to those that run the "+10 oz.`s" amount of oil....Does it read on the sight glass with the bike on the side stand? (assuming level ground). If the sight glass IS in the wrong place, that means there`s a hell of alot of KLR owners riding around with a seriously low oil level.(10 oz. down on a total volume of 2.5 litres seems serious to me anyway) Suprises me that there aren`t more oil starvation related problems reported with KLRs.....? ~MERK "but what do I know?" ;0)

[marcclarke@unforgettable.com]

----Original Message-----

>From: "MERK" >To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> >Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Re: Oil amount? >Date: Friday, September 21, 2001 15:20 > >So.....to those that run the "+10 oz.`s" amount of oil....Does it read >on the sight glass with the bike on the side stand? (assuming level >ground).

The base manual specifies, on page 4-12, "With the motorcyle perpendicular to the ground...". for changing the oil.

>If the sight glass IS in the wrong place,

It is. Perform the measurement yourself to see how much oil you have left out of your 2.5 liters when the oil reaches the top of the sight glass.

> that means there`s a hell of >alot of KLR owners riding around with a seriously low oil level.

I suspect that there are, alas.

>(10 oz. >down on a total volume of 2.5 litres seems serious to me anyway)

It is. Particularly so given that the critical bearings are on the very top of the engine.

>Suprises me that there aren`t more oil starvation related problems >reported with KLRs.....? > >~MERK "but what do I know?" ;0)

Elden Carl tears apart high-milage KLR 650 engines for fun. He is the one who first publicly identified the problem wi1th top-end lubrication in KLR650 engines in his column in the Dual Sport News magazine (as far as I know). I simply repeated his measurement as I changed my KLR650's oil for the first time. You can too. I found that I had about 10 oz. out of my 2.5 liters left when the oil got to the top of the sight glass. No rocket science. As Elden suggested, I took a good look at the engine diagrams in the manual so see what kind of bearing surfaces suppported the cams. Simple machined journals with no ball bearings, no roller bearings, no tapered bearings, just a cylindrical cam shaft rotating in a simple machined recess in the head. Yikes! I instantly decided to run the best oil I could find, to use the best filter, and to change my oil on a very regular interval. I want to run my KLR650 for at least 100,000 miles. That is my decision for my motorcycle and my engine. It is your motorcycle. It is your engine. It is your engine's head. They are your camshafts. They are your lubrication-dependant journals. It is your oil. It is your wallet. It is your money. You can run your engine 10 oz. low out of the required 2.5 liters of oil. It is your return on investment calculation. It is your decision. -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA

[Krgrife@aol.com]

In a message dated 9/21/01 2:28:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time, merk26@... writes: << Suprises me that there aren`t more oil starvation related problems reported with KLRs.....? >> Well, I've seen a couple including a used engine I recently purchased from another lister that had severe damage to the exhaust cam carrier from obvious lack of lubrication. Head was ruined. I don't know if the sight glass is correct or not but after many thousands of miles I am convinced that at least there is no harm in running the extra 10 oz. Regards, Kurt Grife

[Bogdan Swider]

> It is your motorcycle. It is your engine. It is your engine's head. They > are your camshafts. They are your lubrication-dependant journals. It is > your oil. It is your wallet. It is your money. You can run your engine > 10 oz. low out of the required 2.5 liters of oil. It is your return on > investment calculation. It is your decision. > > -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA > >

Couple of points more. Many people have been adding the extra (?) oil for years; I've never heard of a case where the oil was foaming. When I first read of Elden's opinion I was not convinced. I thought that he wasn't accounting for oil that didn't drain; it stayed somewhere in the engine or tranny. Now I know how many engines he's taken apart. He certainly would have noticed an undrained pool of oil. Having said all of this it's hard to tell if running the 10 oz. short has done anyone any harm. Bogdan

[Brad Davis]

> Couple of points more. Many people have been adding the extra

(?)

> oil for years; I've never heard of a case where the oil was

foaming. When I

> first read of Elden's opinion I was not convinced. I thought that

he wasn't

> accounting for oil that didn't drain; it stayed somewhere in the

engine or

> tranny. Now I know how many engines he's taken apart. He certainly

would

> have noticed an undrained pool of oil. Having said all of this it's

hard to

> tell if running the 10 oz. short has done anyone any harm. > > Bogdan

When I add 2qts 20oz to my 95 klr650 the level comes up ever so slightly above the site window. This is with the bike held vertical and not leaning on the kickstand. Is this what other people see? Brad

[marcclarke@unforgettable.com]

Brad, Hello!?! No, that is not at all what I see. When I fill my crankcase with 2.5 liters on my '98 KLR650 after draining the case, removing the oil filter, and draining the little tube below the oil filter, the fresh oil passes the top of the sight glass with about 10 oz. yet to go to put the full 2.5 liters in. Tell us about your draining and filling procedure in exquisite detail, please! -- Marc, KLR650 A12, Loveland, Colorado, USA ----Original Message-----

>From: "Brad Davis" >To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [DSN_klr650] Re: Oil amount? >Date: Saturday, September 22, 2001 20:02 >When I add 2qts 20oz to my 95 klr650 the level comes up ever so >slightly above the site window. This is with the bike held vertical >and not leaning on the kickstand. Is this what other people see? >Brad