info on the list

[Robert Morgan]

Dash...great post, one of the more informative things I have read on this list in some time. Bravo Morgan

----- Original Message ----- From: Dash Weeks To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 2:40 PM Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Re: Upper rear frame bolts > Most Stainless Steels will "work harden" - WORK being Force times > Distance. Stainless doesn't stress harden, but it does strain > harden. Strain being a distance. So long as the applied stress (call it > force for now) doesn't cause a strain then no it won't harden. Lets talk > dislocation theory for a spell and you'll all be asleep, I'll skip that for > this post. ;} > > There are basically three types of stainless steels, Austenitic, > Martensitic and Ferritic. We'll deal with the first two as they are the > most common and the ones that are used for most applications. The > Austenitic stainless steels are not heat treatable, that is they don't get > hard with a heat treatment. They do get hard with WORK. Martensitic > stainless steels typically only get hard with a heat treatment, and only > work harden a little bit. A full hard Austenitic can be as strong as a > modestly treated Martensitic BUT it is not as tough. Tough -relating to > the amount of work needed for failure, more specifically it is the > material's resistance to crack growth. (we don't need a fracture mechanics > lesson here) We need strength and toughness on our 650cc > Vibrators. Austenitic won't give you both. AND Austenitic is the common > grade for your bolts at the marine store and the hardware store (18/8 or > 300 series). Most of the 400 series are Martensitic, that is you can heat > treat them and in some cases enjoy good toughness. BUT you couldn't afford > a set of bolts made of 400 series stainless. The alloys are expensive, the > processing is expensive and you'd be better off using a coated alloy steel > bolt in its place and deal with the corrosion. > > Now you're gonna run to your Metals Handbook and give me a whole bunch of > "Yeah but" or "What about" and you'll find plenty to be outside the norm > of general concepts. Welcome to metallurgy. The alloys nowadays are > amazing, and there are simply too many to list here as examples. > > Let me add that all the bolt alloys have to have at least 10% > elongation. Then the grades are specified with minimum tensile strengths.... > > Grade 8 - 150 ksi > Grade 7 - 133 ksi > Grade 6 - 133 ksi - 140 ksi (yes that's right... this is stress and not > load - so diameters are important to consider and are specified with size > limits.) > Grade 5 - 105 ksi - 120 ksi > Grade 3 - 55-100 ksi > Grade 2 - 64-69 ksi > Grade 1 - 55 ksi > > Well Grade 8 is only possible with one of the Austenitic stainless (at > least what I have listed here in front of me today) and that is 301-1/2 > hard. But in the Martensitic SS's you can do it with a 416, 414, 430, 431 > and I'm sure there's a bunch more that I don't have listed. So why not > make Grade 8 stainless bolts out of 301 1/2 hard. Well.... for a couple of > reasons... and this isn't to say that it can't or isn't done.... It's just > not common. First, the processing to achieve a 1/2 hard 301 includes an > extensive drawing process, but then the threads are rolled and the head is > forged. You have a mixed hard bolt by the time you get done. If the > dislocation structure across the harness profile isn't matched well (that's > really relative) then you end up with a bolt that has good tensile strength > but really poor thread shear strength. Not good. So then you stress > relieve them and then you are heading right back towards the annealed state > and those properties just aren't good enough. There's too many scenarios > and a million different ways to solve metallurgical problems (hence the > enormous numbers of engineered alloys), so I'm not saying that it can't be > done, or isn't done... It's just not worth it. > > Well I'm about out of stuff to add at this point. If you have any > questions, feel free. Keep your "Yeah buts" and "What abouts" to yourself, > as my only reply will be "that's metallurgy" It's as much an art as it is > a science. > > To answer specifically... It can.... both (most cases).... 10.9 doesn't > mean anything except to the manufacture, it doesn't fit a standard > method.....It is better than stainless, but you can get stainless that is > as good and in a few instances better than "Regular Steel" (what ever > regular means). Longevity of your frame bolts requires a few > things. First that they are free from imperfections and corrosion, second > they are properly torqued, and third.... they'll only break when you > absolutely can't afford (having many meanings) to have one break. > > Oh and DU is barely strong enough for Grade 1 bolts... But yeah it is > highly pyrophoric. > > LaterZ > Dash > > > > > > > At 10:33 AM 2/5/2001 -0800, Rich Kickbush wrote: > >Calling all metallurgists - Stainless hardens with abuse? Does that > >mean it becomes stronger, or more brittle, or both? > >I have hardened steel bolts in my sub-frame that have 10.9 written on > >their head - what grade is this? I assumed that these would be better > >than stainless, since you can't get stainless as hard as reg. steel. Is > >this true? > >PS I second the call to check and maybe upgrade the frame bolts. I > >sheared mine, and it sucks...'specially in the middle of Guatemala... > > > >Rich > > > >Swede wrote: > > > > > --- In DSN_klr650@y..., garagedoor79@h... wrote: > > > > > > > > On the same topic, how are the grades of bolts measured? Is the > > > > lower the number stronger, or the higher the number stronger? > > > > > > > > Karl > > > > > > Grade 5 is pretty much standard, grade 8 is hardened, then you can > > > get into stainless which will harden with abuse (work hardening). > > > Then there's depleated uranium...wait that's artillery, sorry! One > > > hit with a hammer and B-BOOOOMM! > > > Visit the KLR650 archives at > http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 > Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... > Let's keep this list SPAM free! > > Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > >

[Russell Scott]

Dash knows more about meteors and other heavy metals than anyone I know. He would make a great Meteorologist. Russel'r DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com; Dash Weeks Subject: Re: [DSN_klr650] Re: Upper rear frame bolts Dash...great post, one of the more informative things I have read on this list in some time. Bravo Morgan

[Bogdan Swider]

> I think the metric fasteners use a different number system for hardness. > 8.8 > is a medium level and I believe the hardest are 12.9. > Kurt Grife >

Using the term hardness to tangentially move to a former topic. Kurt, how hard was it to find that 600 lower first gear? How hard on your wallet? How hard was it to install? Bogdan

[Ted Palmer]

Dash Weeks wrote: [loads...] So long as the applied stress (call it

> force for now) doesn't cause a strain then no it won't harden.

[...] I take it that is "strain" as in plastic deformation, as opposed to elastic deformation. Mister_T

[Dash Weeks]

Hi Rich, I replied to the list as well as the rest of the world may be wondering the same thing as you. 316 is the grade most commonly used in marine (shipboard hardware). For flowing salt water, 316 is way.. way better. Weight loss under flowing saltwater was 4-6 times less for the 316. But exposure to, doesn't necessarily mean flowing saltwater. Spray affects both similarly. Both will pit and bleed rust. However, under the same conditions for the same amount of time the 316 bleeding is easier to clean and the pitting isn't as bad (we're talking years not hours). Both have similar properties against stress-corrosion cracking. Both also have very similar behaviors in galvanic corrosion. For example, an alloy steel bolt will have an accelerated corrosion rate in a high humidity and chloride atmosphere when it is bolted to a Stainless plate but a stainless bolt in a steel plate will only increase galvanic corrosion at the steel plate-ss interface a little. The difference being the relative size of the cathode and anode. So what we are trying to accomplish with our KLR's will only have a slight affect on the accelerated corrosion. The choice between 304 and 316 is for corrosion only, as the strengths are the same. So yeah you chose correctly, you most likely won't have a stuck bolt, 316 is only slightly more expensive than 304 or 18/8 bolts and you will enjoy benefits. As a side note, Humid chloride environments aren't restricted to spray exposure. That atmosphere will get on every single part and into every single crevice. I would strongly advise that after your boat ride, you strip it completely down and rinse every orifice and crack with copious amounts of fresh water. Depending of course on how you package it for shipment, and where it is located. LaterZ Dash At 03:35 PM 2/5/2001 -0800, Rich Kickbush wrote:

>Dash, > What was that bit in the middle?!! >Seriously, yet another question - 316 or 304 stainless? I've been buying >316 as >I have seen some stainless items rust, or at least develop surface >corrosion ie >muffler. My uneducated mind thought the best thing to do would be to buy the >best stainless I could, as corrosion even if it was only surface, would cause >stuck bolts, just not rusted bolts like 'regular steel' (gotta love my >layman's >terms!!!). I may be shipping my bike overseas by boat, and just thought >that the >316 would be the best stuff. Note I always seem to overspec in my builds, >prob >as a reaction to the amount of piss-poor workmanship and cheap design you >seem to >find in everything these days. What are your thoughts, Metal God? > >Rich > >Dash Weeks wrote: > >a whole bunch of stuff

[Dash Weeks]

At 12:24 AM 2/7/2001 +1100, Ted Palmer wrote:

>Dash Weeks wrote: >[loads...] >So long as the applied stress (call it > > force for now) doesn't cause a strain then no it won't harden. >[...] > >I take it that is "strain" as in plastic deformation, as opposed to >elastic deformation. > >Mister_T

OOPS... good point, I should have noted that. Until you reach yield, it isn't worked. However, there is the possibility of accelerated fatigue below but near the yield strength. Stress corrosion cracking is often accelerated near yield and things tend to creep near yield a bit more readily. Yield is a funny thing really. There are standard methods of reporting yield, but in many cases yield actually occurs slightly before the reported yield strength. It isn't common in stainless steels so we don't have to worry about it but certain alloys show a hysteresis in stress-strain. Depending on the amount or spread of hysteresis (relaxation time), that could prove very bad for some applications. For those who are completely lost.... there are some bolts that you torque, then torque a little more, and finally torque again to the final required value. For alloy steel that relax quickly it's not a problem, but for some other alloy'd metals the relaxation time is so long that you torque it to a level and when you really need to be that level, it no longer is there. It has a lot to do with 1) dislocation pinning and motion/relaxation and (in some not so common cases) 2) crystal -reorientation and (in even less common cases) 3) crystal structure changes. They don't make bolts out of those metal alloys though so go drink a beer and keep not worrying about it. ;} LaterZ Dash

[Kurt Simpson (Dual Sport News)]

You're in the wrong place either of these lists will work... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DSN_DR http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DRZ400 -----Original Message----- From: Frederic Hudon [mailto:Fred@...] Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 10:56 AM To: DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com Subject: [DSN_klr650] Info on the list Hi ! I'm new on this list and I was wondering if this list was for Dr400? If not is there somebody that can let me know if there's a list. Thanks Fred [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Visit the KLR650 archives at http://www.listquest.com/lq/search.html?ln=klr650 Support Dual Sport News... dsneditor@... Let's keep this list SPAM free! Visit our site at http://www.egroups.com/group/DSN_klr650 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: DSN_klr650-unsubscribe@egroups.com

[Krgrife@aol.com]

In a message dated 2/5/01 7:51:14 PM Pacific Standard Time, BSwider@... writes: << Using the term hardness to tangentially move to a former topic. Kurt, how hard was it to find that 600 lower first gear? How hard on your wallet? How hard was it to install? Bogdan >> Toby Lampson found the KLR 600 tranny parts at his local salvage yard, price was around $130. Installation was easy for me since the cases were split anyway but would be a major pain if you weren't doing a complete rebuild as I was. Kurt Grife