craig vetter's klr

[RobertWichert]

I suppose that I could just Google "KLR 650 Clutch" and go from there, but I respect the opinions of this group greatly, even if they (Fred) don't always agree with me. I still believe that Fred is a fountain of knowledge and experience and has the best deals on the planet. I try not to buy from anyone else. So, here goes... It seems like my clutch is slipping a bit. A bit of over-revving on upshifts with power on. If this was a super bike, I would suspect wheel spin, but well, you know better than that, don't you!!!! When I was much younger, we replaced clutches with Barnett clutches. They were stronger, better, lighter, faster, all things good. For the KLR, I'm thinking Kawi all the way. Any thoughts to the contrary? I'll do anything to save weight, but I don't think anybody makes a titanium-carbon-fiber clutch pack for the KLR. Fred, do you sell OEM? Do you recommend OEM? Anybody else have any ideas? Anything I should fix while I'm in there? I have a periodic drip from the water pump, so I'm figuring that into the right side fix. Any suggestions on that? Your help is appreciated. -- Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

[Fred Hink]

It is good when we can disagree and still get along.  My opinions are just that.    Is your clutch cable adjusted with the correct amount of freeplay?  If it gets tight the clutch could slip because it isn t releasing completely.  Like a chain, your clutch cable is better too loose than too tight.  Most all clutch friction plates have a cork face, so cork is cork in my books.  The backing may be slightly different in some clutch plates but I think most are made from either aluminum or an alloy.  The steel plates are all made out of (you guessed it) steel.  So I doubt there will be a dimes worth of difference between most clutch plates.  I have not heard of any differences between one brand over another.  There are some that are more expensive than others but they all should work well.  I can order any OEM part but I have never sold the OEM clutch plates because no one has ever asked for them.  The steel plates are usually never replaced as they don t get worn but can get damaged if you were to burn up your clutch or the clutch comes apart.  There is a recommend minimum thickness for your clutch plates that Kawasaki says you should replace them at, but if you are in there to check them you might as well just replace them.  I d also suspect that your clutch springs may be getting weak as like any spring they will weaken with age and heat.  Once your clutch starts slipping it generates more heat which takes out more temper on those springs which causes more slippage and more heat and I think you can take it from there.  Springs are cheap.   Your mechanical seal on your water pump is leaking.  There is also an oil seal to keep your coolant from finding it s way inside your motor.  The weap-hole on the water pump is what is letting out the leakage from your mechanical seal.  This is what it is designed for.  If you didn t have the weap-hole it would force the leakage inside your motor.   Looks like you are in for a new clutch cover gasket, new friction plates, clutch springs, mechanical seal, oil seal, impeller o-ring and water pump cover gasket.  Be sure to clean out your oil pickup screen while you are in there.   Good luck, Fred http://www.arrowheadmotorsports.com   [b]From:[/b] robert@... [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:50 PM [b]To:[/b] DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [DSN_KLR650] Slippery Clutch     I suppose that I could just Google "KLR 650 Clutch" and go from there, but I respect the opinions of this group greatly, even if they (Fred) don't always agree with me. I still believe that Fred is a fountain of knowledge and experience and has the best deals on the planet. I try not to buy from anyone else. So, here goes... It seems like my clutch is slipping a bit. A bit of over-revving on upshifts with power on. If this was a super bike, I would suspect wheel spin, but well, you know better than that, don't you!!!! When I was much younger, we replaced clutches with Barnett clutches. They were stronger, better, lighter, faster, all things good. For the KLR, I'm thinking Kawi all the way. Any thoughts to the contrary? I'll do anything to save weight, but I don't think anybody makes a titanium-carbon-fiber clutch pack for the KLR. Fred, do you sell OEM? Do you recommend OEM? Anybody else have any ideas? Anything I should fix while I'm in there? I have a periodic drip from the water pump, so I'm figuring that into the right side fix. Any suggestions on that? Your help is appreciated. -- Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

[Norm Keller]

 

Cork clutch plate facings...Wow, that takes a guy back, Fred. Do you recall gluing on new cork?

 

Those were the days, 1950's and 1960's but no way those clutches would handle the power of today's machines.

 

The friction materials used are metallic materials in the main but asbestos was used in the past. Motorcycle wet clutch technology as no-doubt followed that of automotive automatic transmission development which can accept huge increases in power and over an unbelievably increased service life. The main difference in motorcycle clutch service, IMO, is that bike clutches are applied by coil springs (don't recall any Belleville springs in recent decades...) rather than hydraulic pressure as are automatic transmissions. This means that the clamping force is limited and also that there is no processor monitoring rate of engagement or slippage.

 

If your clutch is slipping or slow to apply (often the same cause), check to insure that the linkage at the side cover is free and is moving all the way back to battery when the lever is released. If the cable is binding or misadjusted, the linkage will hold the clutch in partial release which will wear the release mechanism and allow the clutch to slip. Slipping means both heat and wear which increases the amount of partial release.

 

Measure the friction plates for thickness and dump them if they are close to limit, also smell and feel them as well as to inspect the steel plates for blued and blackened areas. Measure the steels also but typically, unless burned or warped, they can be sanded and reinstalled. If the friction plates smell burned (no idea how to describe that in print) then they need to be replaced. Older KLR's are getting to be advanced age so not unlikely that there is wear to the friction plates as well as to the drum splines and basket fingers.

 

If there are grooves worn into the drum splines and especially into the basket fingers, the plates will catch in the grooves which will affect both application and release. One can sometimes stone out some wear to the release fingers but the splines ..doubt it can be accomplished and likely not worth the attempt.

 

Springs become weaker with age due to compression and because of working during application and release. If going in there, I'd just order a set from Fred as if yours are original they will be short because they aren't returning to original length and this reduces application pressure = slipping. Springs don't become weaker because of the heat of slipping as the temperature required to remove temper would melt the aluminum clutch basket and set fire to the oil. Just IMO. I've not seem clutch springs which were showing signs of heating in a bike clutch.

 

Another clutch slipping cause can be wrong type of oil &/or oil additives such as STP which used to cause slipping. Haven't encountered that in decades so don't know if the newer clutches are so affected but see no reason that the same risk would not prevail.

 

If memory serves, and Fred will know off hand, there are two spring lengths used in Gen1 clutches and the shorter one will cause slipping if installed in the other clutch. I think the shorter springs were used in the earlier clutches?  Rather than looking it up, seems simpler to post the consideration as it will be confirmed/corrected. It might be useful for someone ordering parts. I do recall measuring springs when ever ordering as heard of someone who received the wrong springs because the bike had the clutch swapped...think it was a KLR but regardless worth checking measurement when ordering.

 

I think that someone said that they haven't noticed any differences between OEM and other plates which fits my experience also. Kawasaki won't have made those clutch plates so the other ones one receives could even be from the same factory but not in a Kawasaki box. IME, OEM boxes are an over blown consideration.

[Fred Hink]

Why would I want to glue on new cork when I can just sell them they way they come from EBC and not get my hands dirty. http://ebcbrakes.com/product/standard-ck-series/   Sorry to let you know that cork is still being used today.  I stock EBC clutches and they have always been cork.  Different companies can add their own special ingredients. Fred http://www.arrowheadmotorsports.com   [b]From:[/b] normkel32@... [b]Sent:[/b] Thursday, April 10, 2014 2:52 PM [b]To:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [b]Subject:[/b] [DSN_KLR650] Re: Slippery Clutch    

  Cork clutch plate facings...Wow, that takes a guy back, Fred. Do you recall gluing on new cork?   Those were the days, 1950's and 1960's but no way those clutches would handle the power of today's machines.   The friction materials used are metallic materials in the main but asbestos was used in the past. Motorcycle wet clutch technology as no-doubt followed that of automotive automatic transmission development which can accept huge increases in power and over an unbelievably increased service life. The main difference in motorcycle clutch service, IMO, is that bike clutches are applied by coil springs (don't recall any Belleville springs in recent decades...) rather than hydraulic pressure as are automatic transmissions. This means that the clamping force is limited and also that there is no processor monitoring rate of engagement or slippage.   If your clutch is slipping or slow to apply (often the same cause), check to insure that the linkage at the side cover is free and is moving all the way back to battery when the lever is released. If the cable is binding or misadjusted, the linkage will hold the clutch in partial release which will wear the release mechanism and allow the clutch to slip. Slipping means both heat and wear which increases the amount of partial release.   Measure the friction plates for thickness and dump them if they are close to limit, also smell and feel them as well as to inspect the steel plates for blued and blackened areas. Measure the steels also but typically, unless burned or warped, they can be sanded and reinstalled. If the friction plates smell burned (no idea how to describe that in print) then they need to be replaced. Older KLR's are getting to be advanced age so not unlikely that there is wear to the friction plates as well as to the drum splines and basket fingers.   If there are grooves worn into the drum splines and especially into the basket fingers, the plates will catch in the grooves which will affect both application and release. One can sometimes stone out some wear to the release fingers but the splines ..doubt it can be accomplished and likely not worth the attempt.   Springs become weaker with age due to compression and because of working during application and release. If going in there, I'd just order a set from Fred as if yours are original they will be short because they aren't returning to original length and this reduces application pressure = slipping. Springs don't become weaker because of the heat of slipping as the temperature required to remove temper would melt the aluminum clutch basket and set fire to the oil. Just IMO. I've not seem clutch springs which were showing signs of heating in a bike clutch.   Another clutch slipping cause can be wrong type of oil &/or oil additives such as STP which used to cause slipping. Haven't encountered that in decades so don't know if the newer clutches are so affected but see no reason that the same risk would not prevail.   If memory serves, and Fred will know off hand, there are two spring lengths used in Gen1 clutches and the shorter one will cause slipping if installed in the other clutch. I think the shorter springs were used in the earlier clutches?  Rather than looking it up, seems simpler to post the consideration as it will be confirmed/corrected. It might be useful for someone ordering parts. I do recall measuring springs when ever ordering as heard of someone who received the wrong springs because the bike had the clutch swapped...think it was a KLR but regardless worth checking measurement when ordering.   I think that someone said that they haven't noticed any differences between OEM and other plates which fits my experience also. Kawasaki won't have made those clutch plates so the other ones one receives could even be from the same factory but not in a Kawasaki box. IME, OEM boxes are an over blown consideration.

[John Biccum]

I replaced the clutch on my 77K mile 685. I'd been noticing the clutch lever pull was getting ever easier and thought I detected a slight slippage as well. But that "slippage" might have been TIRE slippage (new D606s, wet roads, 43hp at the rear wheel and a heavy throttle hand?). But the KLR takes me into back county and across country so I didn't want to chance a clutch that suddenly was slipping badly and stranding me. I don't mind scheduled preventative maintenance but am not so enamored with trailside breakdown repairs which in my part of the country seem most likely to take place in fog, darkness *and* rain. Research suggested that the old discs were likely to be fine (not glazed, thickness within spec.). But the springs were probably shot. I planned to tear down and evaluate the discs first then install new discs only if needed. My local Kawi dealer (RIP Waldron Kawasaki) had the discs in stock and told me that if I didn't use them I could return them. So I bought new OEM discs and springs. But then I read that the new discs had to be soaked *overnight* in oil before installation, I decided to pre-soak the new discs so I could get the job done in one day. Of course once oil soaked the new discs were not returnable. Every one of the old discs were well within spec, in fact they measured virtually the same as the unused set. Disc to disc differences in thickness were noted but no difference was seen between the new and old disc sets. So the list wisdom was right, no reason to replace discs. I used a 0-1" x .0001 Starrett micrometer to make the measurements and have a few decades vocational experience with that measuring instrument so I am confident in the measurements. The springs were another story. All were at or below the minimum free height and I could feel a substantial difference is the pressure required to compress the new springs. So the springs *were* the problem and again, the list wisdom was exactly right. I kept the set of old discs in case anyone needed one or the entire set. But I'd bet your discs will be fine and the springs will be shot. Given the overbuilt nature of the KLR clutch, I'd stay with the OEM parts unless you want to buy aftermarket heaver weight springs. I'd stay with the stock weight springs and plan on replacing them every 70K miles or so rather than dealing with the heavier clutch lever pull. I can't see any reason to buy new discs. (from seat 16D at FL38 somewhere over Texas) From: DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [mailto:DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of RobertWichert Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 17:51 To: klr Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Slippery Clutch I suppose that I could just Google "KLR 650 Clutch" and go from there, but I respect the opinions of this group greatly, even if they (Fred) don't always agree with me. I still believe that Fred is a fountain of knowledge and experience and has the best deals on the planet. I try not to buy from anyone else. So, here goes... It seems like my clutch is slipping a bit. A bit of over-revving on upshifts with power on. If this was a super bike, I would suspect wheel spin, but well, you know better than that, don't you!!!! When I was much younger, we replaced clutches with Barnett clutches. They were stronger, better, lighter, faster, all things good. For the KLR, I'm thinking Kawi all the way. Any thoughts to the contrary? I'll do anything to save weight, but I don't think anybody makes a titanium-carbon-fiber clutch pack for the KLR. Fred, do you sell OEM? Do you recommend OEM? Anybody else have any ideas? Anything I should fix while I'm in there? I have a periodic drip from the water pump, so I'm figuring that into the right side fix. Any suggestions on that? Your help is appreciated. -- Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Norm Keller]

Thanks for that bit on cork, Fred. I'm thinking that they are using impregnation with newer materials rather than the straight cork used in the old days. Part of the pay-back from posting is to check out one's information.

[Michael Burwell]

That makes sense but, and Craig Vetter knows a lot more about aerodynamics than I do, I would think a lower profile bike would be easier to streamline for maximum mileage. Ninja 250 with more upright seating for longer distances, perhaps? There was a Paris-Dakar type faired KLR in the Jacksonville Craigslist last year whose fairing looked quite similar to what he came up with - minus the articulated headpiece, which is pretty cool. Michael Sent from my iPad

[RobertWichert]

Texting and flying, John?  Be careful! Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

On 4/10/2014 5:43 PM, John Biccum wrote:

I replaced the clutch on my 77K mile 685.  

 

I’d been noticing the clutch lever pull was getting ever easier and thought I detected a slight slippage as well.   But that “slippage” might have been TIRE slippage (new D606s, wet roads, 43hp at the rear wheel and a heavy throttle hand?).  But the KLR takes me into back county and across country so I didn’t want to chance a clutch that suddenly was slipping badly and stranding me.  I don’t mind scheduled preventative maintenance but am not so enamored with trailside breakdown repairs which in my part of the country seem most likely to take place in fog, darkness *[b]and[/b]* rain.

 

Research suggested that the old discs were likely to be fine (not glazed, thickness within spec.).  But the springs were probably shot. 

 

I planned to tear down and evaluate the discs first then install new discs only if needed.  My local Kawi dealer (RIP Waldron Kawasaki) had the discs in stock and told me that if I didn’t use them I could return them.  So I bought new OEM  discs and springs.  But then I read that the new discs had to be soaked *[b]overnight[/b]* in oil before installation, I decided to pre-soak the new discs so I could get the job done in one day.  Of course once oil soaked the new discs were not returnable.

 

Every one of the old discs were well within spec, in fact they measured virtually the same as the unused set.  Disc to disc differences in thickness were noted but no difference was seen between the new and old disc sets.  So the list wisdom was right, no reason to replace discs.  I used a 0-1” x .0001 Starrett micrometer to make the measurements and have a few decades vocational experience with that measuring instrument so I am confident in the measurements.

 

The springs were another story.  All were at or below the minimum free height and I could feel  a substantial difference is the pressure required to compress the new springs.  So the springs *[b]were[/b]* the problem and again, the list wisdom was exactly right.

 

I kept the set of old discs in case anyone needed one or the entire set.  But I’d bet your discs will be fine and the springs will be shot.

 

Given the overbuilt nature of the KLR clutch, I’d stay with the OEM parts unless you want to buy aftermarket heaver weight springs.  I’d stay with the stock weight springs and plan on  replacing them every 70K miles or so rather than dealing with the heavier clutch lever pull.  I can’t see any reason to buy new discs.

 

(from seat 16D at FL38 somewhere over Texas)

 

[b]From:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]RobertWichert [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, April 9, 2014 17:51 [b]To:[/b] klr [b]Subject:[/b] [DSN_KLR650] Slippery Clutch

 

 

I suppose that I could just Google "KLR 650 Clutch" and go from there, but I respect the opinions of this group greatly, even if they (Fred) don't always agree with me. I still believe that Fred is a fountain of knowledge and experience and has the best deals on the planet. I try not to buy from anyone else. So, here goes... It seems like my clutch is slipping a bit. A bit of over-revving on upshifts with power on. If this was a super bike, I would suspect wheel spin, but well, you know better than that, don't you!!!! When I was much younger, we replaced clutches with Barnett clutches. They were stronger, better, lighter, faster, all things good. For the KLR, I'm thinking Kawi all the way. Any thoughts to the contrary? I'll do anything to save weight, but I don't think anybody makes a titanium-carbon-fiber clutch pack for the KLR. Fred, do you sell OEM? Do you recommend OEM? Anybody else have any ideas? Anything I should fix while I'm in there? I have a periodic drip from the water pump, so I'm figuring that into the right side fix. Any suggestions on that? Your help is appreciated. -- Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================

[mark ward]

Safety & texting while flying? It seams like every time he stops flapping with one arm to text, he would go in circles. 

[b]From:[/b] RobertWichert robert@wichert.org> [b]To:[/b] John Biccum johnbiccum@comcast.net> [b]Cc:[/b] dsn_klr650@yahoogroups.com [b]Sent:[/b] Friday, April 11, 2014 9:26 AM [b]Subject:[/b] Re: [DSN_KLR650] Slippery Clutch Texting and flying, John?  Be careful! Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== On 4/10/2014 5:43 PM, John Biccum wrote:

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#ygrps-yiv-1105990499yiv3333296038 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1105990499 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1105990499yiv3333296038 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1105990499 filtered #ygrps-yiv-1105990499yiv3333296038 {font-family:Wingdings;} #ygrps-yiv-1105990499 #ygrps-yiv-1105990499yiv3333296038 ol {margin-bottom:0in;} #ygrps-yiv-1105990499 #ygrps-yiv-1105990499yiv3333296038 ul {margin-bottom:0in;} #ygrps-yiv-1105990499 I replaced the clutch on my 77K mile 685.     I d been noticing the clutch lever pull was getting ever easier and thought I detected a slight slippage as well.   But that slippage might have been TIRE slippage (new D606s, wet roads, 43hp at the rear wheel and a heavy throttle hand?).  But the KLR takes me into back county and across country so I didn t want to chance a clutch that suddenly was slipping badly and stranding me.  I don t mind scheduled preventative maintenance but am not so enamored with trailside breakdown repairs which in my part of the country seem most likely to take place in fog, darkness *[b]and[/b]* rain.   Research suggested that the old discs were likely to be fine (not glazed, thickness within spec.).  But the springs were probably shot.    I planned to tear down and evaluate the discs first then install new discs only if needed.  My local Kawi dealer (RIP Waldron Kawasaki) had the discs in stock and told me that if I didn t use them I could return them.  So I bought new OEM  discs and springs.  But then I read that the new discs had to be soaked *[b]overnight[/b]* in oil before installation, I decided to pre-soak the new discs so I could get the job done in one day.  Of course once oil soaked the new discs were not returnable.   Every one of the old discs were well within spec, in fact they measured virtually the same as the unused set.  Disc to disc differences in thickness were noted but no difference was seen between the new and old disc sets.  So the list wisdom was right, no reason to replace discs.  I used a 0-1 x .0001 Starrett micrometer to make the measurements and have a few decades vocational experience with that measuring instrument so I am confident in the measurements.   The springs were another story.  All were at or below the minimum free height and I could feel  a substantial difference is the pressure required to compress the new springs.  So the springs *[b]were[/b]* the problem and again, the list wisdom was exactly right.   I kept the set of old discs in case anyone needed one or the entire set.  But I d bet your discs will be fine and the springs will be shot.   Given the overbuilt nature of the KLR clutch, I d stay with the OEM parts unless you want to buy aftermarket heaver weight springs.  I d stay with the stock weight springs and plan on  replacing them every 70K miles or so rather than dealing with the heavier clutch lever pull.  I can t see any reason to buy new discs.   (from seat 16D at FL38 somewhere over Texas)   [b]From:[/b] DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com [DSN_KLR650@yahoogroups.com] [b]On Behalf Of [/b]RobertWichert [b]Sent:[/b] Wednesday, April 9, 2014 17:51 [b]To:[/b] klr [b]Subject:[/b] [DSN_KLR650] Slippery Clutch     I suppose that I could just Google "KLR 650 Clutch" and go from there, but I respect the opinions of this group greatly, even if they (Fred) don't always agree with me. I still believe that Fred is a fountain of knowledge and experience and has the best deals on the planet. I try not to buy from anyone else. So, here goes... It seems like my clutch is slipping a bit. A bit of over-revving on upshifts with power on. If this was a super bike, I would suspect wheel spin, but well, you know better than that, don't you!!!! When I was much younger, we replaced clutches with Barnett clutches. They were stronger, better, lighter, faster, all things good. For the KLR, I'm thinking Kawi all the way. Any thoughts to the contrary? I'll do anything to save weight, but I don't think anybody makes a titanium-carbon-fiber clutch pack for the KLR. Fred, do you sell OEM? Do you recommend OEM? Anybody else have any ideas? Anything I should fix while I'm in there? I have a periodic drip from the water pump, so I'm figuring that into the right side fix. Any suggestions on that? Your help is appreciated. -- Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 =============================================== [img]cid:1.2751655470@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com[/img][img]cid:2.2751655470@web184704.mail.ne1.yahoo.com[/img]

[Bogdan Swider]

Somewhere around 70K miles while addressing a leaky water pump, I inspected the clutch. I was surprised to see that the plates measured as new; saw no reason to change them. The springs, however, were marginal.  I'm no mechanical genius but I deduced that I was lucky to get in there when I did.  As the springs weakened further, the plates would have worn.  Fred talked me into heavy duty springs that were cheaper than the OEM Kawi option. Definitely take more effort ..but then I always wanted Popeye forearms.   Bogdan From: RobertWichert Date: Wednesday, April 9, 2014 6:50 PM To: klr DSN_klr650@yahoogroups.com> Subject: [DSN_KLR650] Slippery Clutch   I suppose that I could just Google "KLR 650 Clutch" and go from there, but I respect the opinions of this group greatly, even if they (Fred) don't always agree with me. I still believe that Fred is a fountain of knowledge and experience and has the best deals on the planet. I try not to buy from anyone else. So, here goes... It seems like my clutch is slipping a bit. A bit of over-revving on upshifts with power on. If this was a super bike, I would suspect wheel spin, but well, you know better than that, don't you!!!! When I was much younger, we replaced clutches with Barnett clutches. They were stronger, better, lighter, faster, all things good. For the KLR, I'm thinking Kawi all the way. Any thoughts to the contrary? I'll do anything to save weight, but I don't think anybody makes a titanium-carbon-fiber clutch pack for the KLR. Fred, do you sell OEM? Do you recommend OEM? Anybody else have any ideas? Anything I should fix while I'm in there? I have a periodic drip from the water pump, so I'm figuring that into the right side fix. Any suggestions on that? Your help is appreciated. -- Robert Wichert P.Eng. LEED AP BD&C +1 916 966 9060 FAX +1 916 966 9068 ===============================================