Re: More than a little irritating.

[Ken Gillett]

In fact this has seriously annoyed me. I’ve spent days re-organising the multiple layers of a house plan which uses a Symbol I’ve created as each Window, just sized to suit each instance. Much of this re-organisation involved using the Layer Menu’s Duplicate or Transfer commands to move each layer where I now want them. Time consuming but nothing complex.

I’ve just noticed that it has thrown away EVERY SINGLE window (symbol). I have no idea when this occurred so I cannot simply Undo to get them back. Aaarrggghhhh!

I opened an earlier copy document of this document which still has the windows. I started by Duplicating a layer that has these window symbols to a new layer so I could then move the windows to another layer all on their own and then try and figure out how to copy them to the latest doc that’s lost them. But lo and behold, the Duplicate command throws away all the window symbols, even in the originating layer.I’ve no idea what happened in the destination layer as I immediately closed the doc before it got saved, quit Cadintosh and sat down in a darkened room before I did something I might regret later.

But seriously, this is a MAJOR problem. First of all, a simple Duplicate process is throwing away objects instead of copying everything to the new layer and even when that is fixed, I have a lot of these window symbols in the older doc (in the correct positions in the drawing as that has not changed) and I need to simply copy them all and paste them into the appropriate layer in the newer doc.

I need Thorsten’s help here.


Ken G i l l e t t

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[thorstenlemke]

Dear Ken,
the duplicate process throws no objects away.Did you maybe use the explode symbols function?
Thorsten

But seriously, this is a MAJOR problem. First of all, a simple Duplicate process is throwing away objects instead of copying everything to the new layer and even when that is fixed, I have a lot of these window symbols in the older doc (in the correct positions in the drawing as that has not changed) and I need to simply copy them all and paste them into the appropriate layer in the newer doc.

[Ken Gillett]

I’m sure it’s not intentional and I’m also sure I didn’t do anything explicitly with the symbols.

I just duplicated the earlier file that still includes the windows symbols and opened that copy in Cadintosh (which was not running, so just started afresh). The document opened with layer 400 showing (and a couple of others with minor objects). I’ve done this a couple of times and to simplify, this is what occurs:-

Set current layer to 499 (an empty layer) and show only 400 (with plan of house including about a dozen window symbols) and 498 which is empty. Select menu Layer/Duplicate… and type 400, Return, 498 and Return again. This should simply duplicate layer 400 to 498, everything. The 2 layers should now be identical yes? 2 problems:-

498 is actually missing an object that exists in 400. Just a small one, but a quick flip between the 2 layers indicates that object was not copied, although it does still exist in the original layer 400. It is possible it’s just somehow hidden, but I didn’t look in more detail because...

that’s not the main problem.

NEITHER layer contains ANY window symbols. layers 400 and 498 are BOTH devoid of any of those window symbols that existed in 400 before that Layer/Duplicate… process. All instances of those symbols have been eliminated from the entire document.

I have done that repeatedly on several different versions of the document and in every case, all the window symbols get trashed.

Thinking about this some more, it is not just a single symbol. I have several different symbols I use for windows. It appears that all instances of all symbols get trashed.

I also notice that in the library there are 3 copies of every symbol. There shouldn’t be. I only created one of each and the dupes are named with #1 and #2 after the original name. This is something that Cadintosh has done. Why? Is this relevant to the current problem?

But aside from the multiple symbols, everything seems to be working as it should, except I cannot use Layer/Duplicate… which wouldn’t be too much bother right now, except that it has destroyed my document. What I DO need to be able to do is copy those window symbols from one still intact document to the new one where they’ve been secretly deleted. Trying to add each one again as a fresh instance of the symbols will just take too long as each had its own unique dimensions and orientation. How can I copy such symbol instances from one doc to another?

> On 21 Mar 2016, at 06:26, Thorsten Lemke lemke@lemkesoft.de [cadintoshmac] wrote:
>
> Dear Ken,
>
>
> the duplicate process throws no objects away.
> Did you maybe use the explode symbols function?
>
> Thorsten
>
>
>>
>> But seriously, this is a MAJOR problem. First of all, a simple Duplicate process is throwing away objects instead of copying everything to the new layer and even when that is fixed, I have a lot of these window symbols in the older doc (in the correct positions in the drawing as that has not changed) and I need to simply copy them all and paste them into the appropriate layer in the newer doc.
>>
>

Ken G i l l e t t

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[Ken Gillett]

Further to the symbol problem…

The single object I thought had been dropped in the duplicate layer process was not. It was there and had been copied, but that resulted in a different Z order and it was simply hidden. So the problem is just the symbol deletion.

I deleted from the library the duplicates for several (non window) symbols and placed one on the same layer (400) I’ve been testing and tried duplicating the layer again. As before, ALL symbols have disappeared from both the origin and the destination layers, even the new one I just added.

> On 21 Mar 2016, at 09:18, Ken Gillett kengroups@ukgb.net [cadintoshmac] wrote:
>
> I’m sure it’s not intentional and I’m also sure I didn’t do anything explicitly with the symbols.
>
> I just duplicated the earlier file that still includes the windows symbols and opened that copy in Cadintosh (which was not running, so just started afresh). The document opened with layer 400 showing (and a couple of others with minor objects). I’ve done this a couple of times and to simplify, this is what occurs:-
>
> Set current layer to 499 (an empty layer) and show only 400 (with plan of house including about a dozen window symbols) and 498 which is empty. Select menu Layer/Duplicate… and type 400, Return, 498 and Return again. This should simply duplicate layer 400 to 498, everything. The 2 layers should now be identical yes? 2 problems:-
>
> 498 is actually missing an object that exists in 400. Just a small one, but a quick flip between the 2 layers indicates that object was not copied, although it does still exist in the original layer 400. It is possible it’s just somehow hidden, but I didn’t look in more detail because...
>
> that’s not the main problem.
>
> NEITHER layer contains ANY window symbols. layers 400 and 498 are BOTH devoid of any of those window symbols that existed in 400 before that Layer/Duplicate… process. All instances of those symbols have been eliminated from the entire document.
>
> I have done that repeatedly on several different versions of the document and in every case, all the window symbols get trashed.
>
> Thinking about this some more, it is not just a single symbol. I have several different symbols I use for windows. It appears that all instances of all symbols get trashed.
>
> I also notice that in the library there are 3 copies of every symbol. There shouldn’t be. I only created one of each and the dupes are named with #1 and #2 after the original name. This is something that Cadintosh has done. Why? Is this relevant to the current problem?
>
> But aside from the multiple symbols, everything seems to be working as it should, except I cannot use Layer/Duplicate… which wouldn’t be too much bother right now, except that it has destroyed my document. What I DO need to be able to do is copy those window symbols from one still intact document to the new one where they’ve been secretly deleted. Trying to add each one again as a fresh instance of the symbols will just take too long as each had its own unique dimensions and orientation. How can I copy such symbol instances from one doc to another?
>
> > On 21 Mar 2016, at 06:26, Thorsten Lemke lemke@lemkesoft.de [cadintoshmac] wrote:
> >
> > Dear Ken,
> >
> >
> > the duplicate process throws no objects away.
> > Did you maybe use the explode symbols function?
> >
> > Thorsten
> >
> >
> >>
> >> But seriously, this is a MAJOR problem. First of all, a simple Duplicate process is throwing away objects instead of copying everything to the new layer and even when that is fixed, I have a lot of these window symbols in the older doc (in the correct positions in the drawing as that has not changed) and I need to simply copy them all and paste them into the appropriate layer in the newer doc.
> >>
> >

Ken G i l l e t t

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

[Ken Gillett]

And even further…

I tried again, this time adding a different symbol to another unrelated (and empty) layer, in fact 497. I again tried Layer/Duplicate… from 400 to 498 and all symbols vanished, including the one I just added to 497. Gone, all of them.

Any suggestions how to copy symbol instances between 2 documents?

> On 21 Mar 2016, at 09:38, Ken Gillett kengroups@ukgb.net [cadintoshmac] wrote:
>
> Further to the symbol problem…
>
> The single object I thought had been dropped in the duplicate layer process was not. It was there and had been copied, but that resulted in a different Z order and it was simply hidden. So the problem is just the symbol deletion.
>
> I deleted from the library the duplicates for several (non window) symbols and placed one on the same layer (400) I’ve been testing and tried duplicating the layer again. As before, ALL symbols have disappeared from both the origin and the destination layers, even the new one I just added.
>
> > On 21 Mar 2016, at 09:18, Ken Gillett kengroups@ukgb.net [cadintoshmac] wrote:
> >
> > I’m sure it’s not intentional and I’m also sure I didn’t do anything explicitly with the symbols.
> >
> > I just duplicated the earlier file that still includes the windows symbols and opened that copy in Cadintosh (which was not running, so just started afresh). The document opened with layer 400 showing (and a couple of others with minor objects). I’ve done this a couple of times and to simplify, this is what occurs:-
> >
> > Set current layer to 499 (an empty layer) and show only 400 (with plan of house including about a dozen window symbols) and 498 which is empty. Select menu Layer/Duplicate… and type 400, Return, 498 and Return again. This should simply duplicate layer 400 to 498, everything. The 2 layers should now be identical yes? 2 problems:-
> >
> > 498 is actually missing an object that exists in 400. Just a small one, but a quick flip between the 2 layers indicates that object was not copied, although it does still exist in the original layer 400. It is possible it’s just somehow hidden, but I didn’t look in more detail because...
> >
> > that’s not the main problem.
> >
> > NEITHER layer contains ANY window symbols. layers 400 and 498 are BOTH devoid of any of those window symbols that existed in 400 before that Layer/Duplicate… process. All instances of those symbols have been eliminated from the entire document.
> >
> > I have done that repeatedly on several different versions of the document and in every case, all the window symbols get trashed.
> >
> > Thinking about this some more, it is not just a single symbol. I have several different symbols I use for windows. It appears that all instances of all symbols get trashed.
> >
> > I also notice that in the library there are 3 copies of every symbol. There shouldn’t be. I only created one of each and the dupes are named with #1 and #2 after the original name. This is something that Cadintosh has done. Why? Is this relevant to the current problem?
> >
> > But aside from the multiple symbols, everything seems to be working as it should, except I cannot use Layer/Duplicate… which wouldn’t be too much bother right now, except that it has destroyed my document. What I DO need to be able to do is copy those window symbols from one still intact document to the new one where they’ve been secretly deleted. Trying to add each one again as a fresh instance of the symbols will just take too long as each had its own unique dimensions and orientation. How can I copy such symbol instances from one doc to another?
> >
> > > On 21 Mar 2016, at 06:26, Thorsten Lemke lemke@lemkesoft.de [cadintoshmac] wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Ken,
> > >
> > >
> > > the duplicate process throws no objects away.
> > > Did you maybe use the explode symbols function?
> > >
> > > Thorsten
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >> But seriously, this is a MAJOR problem. First of all, a simple Duplicate process is throwing away objects instead of copying everything to the new layer and even when that is fixed, I have a lot of these window symbols in the older doc (in the correct positions in the drawing as that has not changed) and I need to simply copy them all and paste them into the appropriate layer in the newer doc.
> > >>
> > >

Ken G i l l e t t

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

[Ken Gillett]

Curiouser and curiouser.

After another test, I noticed that all symbol instances appear to have been deleted from all layers - except 2 instances of a door symbol that is used in multiple locations. I thought at first all instances had been deleted, but I noticed 2 doors still showing in both origin and destination layers.

I checked the Symbol list and indeed all symbols show as 0 instances, except this door which still shows 2 instances, obviously the ones I can still see.

So…

When the symbol instances appear to get deleted from the layers, they really are deleted and the doc now shows 0 instances. But how come this problem actually leaves behind 2 symbol instances? Why one earth would it delete everything except those 2? This is probably the most puzzling aspect.

And still no nearer to figuring out how to copy symbol instances from one doc to another. So right now, I’m stumped.

Thorsten?

> On 21 Mar 2016, at 09:45, Ken Gillett kengroups@ukgb.net [cadintoshmac] wrote:
>
> And even further…
>
> I tried again, this time adding a different symbol to another unrelated (and empty) layer, in fact 497. I again tried Layer/Duplicate… from 400 to 498 and all symbols vanished, including the one I just added to 497. Gone, all of them.
>
> Any suggestions how to copy symbol instances between 2 documents?
>
>> On 21 Mar 2016, at 09:38, Ken Gillett kengroups@ukgb.net [cadintoshmac] wrote:
>>
>> Further to the symbol problem…
>>
>> The single object I thought had been dropped in the duplicate layer process was not. It was there and had been copied, but that resulted in a different Z order and it was simply hidden. So the problem is just the symbol deletion.
>>
>> I deleted from the library the duplicates for several (non window) symbols and placed one on the same layer (400) I’ve been testing and tried duplicating the layer again. As before, ALL symbols have disappeared from both the origin and the destination layers, even the new one I just added.
>>
>>> On 21 Mar 2016, at 09:18, Ken Gillett kengroups@ukgb.net [cadintoshmac] wrote:
>>>
>>> I’m sure it’s not intentional and I’m also sure I didn’t do anything explicitly with the symbols.
>>>
>>> I just duplicated the earlier file that still includes the windows symbols and opened that copy in Cadintosh (which was not running, so just started afresh). The document opened with layer 400 showing (and a couple of others with minor objects). I’ve done this a couple of times and to simplify, this is what occurs:-
>>>
>>> Set current layer to 499 (an empty layer) and show only 400 (with plan of house including about a dozen window symbols) and 498 which is empty. Select menu Layer/Duplicate… and type 400, Return, 498 and Return again. This should simply duplicate layer 400 to 498, everything. The 2 layers should now be identical yes? 2 problems:-
>>>
>>> 498 is actually missing an object that exists in 400. Just a small one, but a quick flip between the 2 layers indicates that object was not copied, although it does still exist in the original layer 400. It is possible it’s just somehow hidden, but I didn’t look in more detail because...
>>>
>>> that’s not the main problem.
>>>
>>> NEITHER layer contains ANY window symbols. layers 400 and 498 are BOTH devoid of any of those window symbols that existed in 400 before that Layer/Duplicate… process. All instances of those symbols have been eliminated from the entire document.
>>>
>>> I have done that repeatedly on several different versions of the document and in every case, all the window symbols get trashed.
>>>
>>> Thinking about this some more, it is not just a single symbol. I have several different symbols I use for windows. It appears that all instances of all symbols get trashed.
>>>
>>> I also notice that in the library there are 3 copies of every symbol. There shouldn’t be. I only created one of each and the dupes are named with #1 and #2 after the original name. This is something that Cadintosh has done. Why? Is this relevant to the current problem?
>>>
>>> But aside from the multiple symbols, everything seems to be working as it should, except I cannot use Layer/Duplicate… which wouldn’t be too much bother right now, except that it has destroyed my document. What I DO need to be able to do is copy those window symbols from one still intact document to the new one where they’ve been secretly deleted. Trying to add each one again as a fresh instance of the symbols will just take too long as each had its own unique dimensions and orientation. How can I copy such symbol instances from one doc to another?
>>>
>>>> On 21 Mar 2016, at 06:26, Thorsten Lemke lemke@lemkesoft.de [cadintoshmac] wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Ken,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> the duplicate process throws no objects away.
>>>> Did you maybe use the explode symbols function?
>>>>
>>>> Thorsten
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But seriously, this is a MAJOR problem. First of all, a simple Duplicate process is throwing away objects instead of copying everything to the new layer and even when that is fixed, I have a lot of these window symbols in the older doc (in the correct positions in the drawing as that has not changed) and I need to simply copy them all and paste them into the appropriate layer in the newer doc.
>>>>>
>>>>

Ken G i l l e t t

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/






Ken G i l l e t t

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

[thorstenlemke]

Dear Ken,

symbols get only deleted if you delete or explode them manually.
So, what did you do?

Thorsten

[Ken Gillett]

With respect Thorsten, I did explain exactly what I had done and that it did not involve any messing with symbols. But I’ll explain again here:-

As a test to confirm the problem, I duplicated an earlier file that still included the windows and other symbol instances and opened that copy in Cadintosh (which was not already running, so just started afresh). The document opened with layer 400 showing the main house plan (and a couple of other layers with minor objects). I’ve done this many times and to simplify, this is what occurs:-

Start Cadintosh and open the doc. which opens showing layer 400, i.e. the house plan with many symbol instances. Use Layer/Duplicate… to duplicate 400 to any other layer and at the last press of Return, all the symbol instances disappear from the screen. It cannot be any clearer. Exactly what do you think I am doing here that is telling Cadintosh to delete symbol instances.

I have done that repeatedly on several different versions of the document and in every case, ALL symbol instances appear to have been deleted from all layers - except 2 instances of a door symbol that is used in multiple locations. I thought at first all instances of every symbol had been deleted, but I noticed 2 doors still showing in both origin and destination layers.

I checked the Symbol list and indeed all symbols show as 0 instances, except this door which still shows 2 instances, obviously the ones I can still see. I can think of no reason why this symbol would be treated any differently, but I have now done this so many times to test and every time I try to duplicate a layer, every symbol instance gets deleted, except these 2 doors.

Thorsten, please don’t claim I must be doing something with the symbols. The above test was conducted in isolation. Cadintosh not running initially and opening only that one document and performing only those EXACT steps which you can see contain no actions to disrupt any symbols. If I close the doc, Quit Cadintosh and then run the test again, the exact same problem occurs.

I realise Cadintosh is not supposed to do this, hence why I’m here explaining it to you. But trust me, it IS doing it. Cadintosh IS deleting all symbol instances (except 2) from the ENTIRE document whenever I attempt to just duplicate a layer. Just that one action and they’re gone. If I save that doc, they’re irrecoverable. If I quit without saving, everything is back as it should be, but If I try again, same problem.

Currently I am again working on the real document that I need, manually inserting all the symbols that should be there by looking in the old doc which still has them and writing down all the parameters for a symbol, switch back to the main doc, insert the symbol and type in the parameters I wrote down so that instance is exactly where and how it should be. Then the next one…

This is obviously very slow and taking a long time. I wish I could simply select and copy the instance in the old doc and then paste it into the new doc, in the same location etc (just like when copying graphics around in any other graphics program), but I can’t. So I’m having to recreate them all manually like this.

Needless to say, I am seriously unhappy about having to do this. To date I have been very happy with Cadintosh’s stability and reliability, but it is now a very big concern that it can take it upon itself to simply throw away so much of my carefully crafted document, without any notification so that I had not noticed until so much other work had been done it was impractical to go back. So today I will have to continue with the painstaking manual re-entry of every symbol I ever used in this doc.

Under what circumstances would Cadintosh delete symbol instances when duplicating a layer? It is clearly doing so, but why?

> On 22 Mar 2016, at 06:27, Thorsten Lemke lemke@lemkesoft.de [cadintoshmac] wrote:
>
> Dear Ken,
>
> symbols get only deleted if you delete or explode them manually.
> So, what did you do?
>
> Thorsten
>

Ken G i l l e t t

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[Al Szymanski]

Ken, from start to failure, how long do you think it takes you to perform the below process?What I am thinking is that you can start a screen video capture with Quicktime and the resulting video could be sent direct to Thorsten.Quicktime Player; File Menu; New Movie Recording. This way, Thorsten can see the failure and watch whatever mouse/command actions you take.Hoping to help.Al
On Mar 22, 2016, at 4:55 AM, Ken Gillett kengroups@ukgb.net [cadintoshmac] wrote:

With respect Thorsten, I did explain exactly what I had done and that it did not involve any messing with symbols. But I’ll explain again here:-

As a test to confirm the problem, I duplicated an earlier file that still included the windows and other symbol instances and opened that copy in Cadintosh (which was not already running, so just started afresh). The document opened with layer 400 showing the main house plan (and a couple of other layers with minor objects). I’ve done this many times and to simplify, this is what occurs:-

Start Cadintosh and open the doc. which opens showing layer 400, i.e. the house plan with many symbol instances. Use Layer/Duplicate… to duplicate 400 to any other layer and at the last press of Return, all the symbol instances disappear from the screen. It cannot be any clearer. Exactly what do you think I am doing here that is telling Cadintosh to delete symbol instances.

I have done that repeatedly on several different versions of the document and in every case, ALL symbol instances appear to have been deleted from all layers - except 2 instances of a door symbol that is used in multiple locations. I thought at first all instances of every symbol had been deleted, but I noticed 2 doors still showing in both origin and destination layers.

I checked the Symbol list and indeed all symbols show as 0 instances, except this door which still shows 2 instances, obviously the ones I can still see. I can think of no reason why this symbol would be treated any differently, but I have now done this so many times to test and every time I try to duplicate a layer, every symbol instance gets deleted, except these 2 doors.

Thorsten, please don’t claim I must be doing something with the symbols. The above test was conducted in isolation. Cadintosh not running initially and opening only that one document and performing only those EXACT steps which you can see contain no actions to disrupt any symbols. If I close the doc, Quit Cadintosh and then run the test again, the exact same problem occurs.

I realise Cadintosh is not supposed to do this, hence why I’m here explaining it to you. But trust me, it IS doing it. Cadintosh IS deleting all symbol instances (except 2) from the ENTIRE document whenever I attempt to just duplicate a layer. Just that one action and they’re gone. If I save that doc, they’re irrecoverable. If I quit without saving, everything is back as it should be, but If I try again, same problem.

Currently I am again working on the real document that I need, manually inserting all the symbols that should be there by looking in the old doc which still has them and writing down all the parameters for a symbol, switch back to the main doc, insert the symbol and type in the parameters I wrote down so that instance is exactly where and how it should be. Then the next one…

This is obviously very slow and taking a long time. I wish I could simply select and copy the instance in the old doc and then paste it into the new doc, in the same location etc (just like when copying graphics around in any other graphics program), but I can’t. So I’m having to recreate them all manually like this.

Needless to say, I am seriously unhappy about having to do this. To date I have been very happy with Cadintosh’s stability and reliability, but it is now a very big concern that it can take it upon itself to simply throw away so much of my carefully crafted document, without any notification so that I had not noticed until so much other work had been done it was impractical to go back. So today I will have to continue with the painstaking manual re-entry of every symbol I ever used in this doc.

Under what circumstances would Cadintosh delete symbol instances when duplicating a layer? It is clearly doing so, but why?

> On 22 Mar 2016, at 06:27, Thorsten Lemke lemke@lemkesoft.de [cadintoshmac] wrote:
> 
> Dear Ken,
> 
> symbols get only deleted if you delete or explode them manually.
> So, what did you do?
> 
> Thorsten
> 

Ken G i l l e t t

_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/

[Ken Gillett]

It’s just a few seconds so I can easily do that, or send the entire document for Thorsten to look at and see if he can replicate it. I’ll do whatever he wants me to do to help resolve this.

> On 22 Mar 2016, at 14:16, Al Szymanski aszy@mac.com [cadintoshmac] wrote:
>
> Ken, from start to failure, how long do you think it takes you to perform the below process?
>
> What I am thinking is that you can start a screen video capture with Quicktime and the resulting video could be sent direct to Thorsten.
> Quicktime Player; File Menu; New Movie Recording.
> This way, Thorsten can see the failure and watch whatever mouse/command actions you take.
> Hoping to help.
> Al

Ken G i l l e t t

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