Wilsons Sandbox

I'm going to divert here for a little while and delve into what I have
discovered about changing the scale of the dwgs --- either temporally
or permanently.

1st, it's a real bitch finding all these things. They're hidden all
over the place. I hope s'body will step up and act as Archive
Director. I'm not doing this just 'cause I like typing. The opposite,
over the years my paws have received their share of lumps and typing is
not easy. The notes are only done because they haven't been and others
might benefit from what I've learned.

Onward:

I've found at least 5 ways to change the size/scale of the dwgs.

1. Bring up a new dwg or open an existing. In the lower left below
the prompts is a box w/ a drop down menu. Select the scale you want.
Don't worry about the basic point moving away. You can just reset it
by clicking in the co-ords, upper left, and then in free hand mode set
the point.

2. In the vertical right hand menu there are 5 symbols, the + & - will
either increase or shrink the dwg by a factor of 2 --- either multiply
by or divide 2.

3. The "Z" in this menu will shrink the scale factor so the whole dwg
will be shown.

4. Clicking in the scale % box of the co-ord menu allows you to enter
a new scale factor in %. Hit return or enter to activate.

5. By clicking option-click and dragging the dwg can be zoomed. Be
sure to click/drag where you want the zoom to be. That's where it
happens. Sometimes this brings up a window that expands what's inside.
I haven't figured out what it is that causes this to happen yet. W/
my dwgs, it normally just zooms.

6. Along w/ scaling is scrolling. To get around the dwg in the same
scale, shift click drag. That will move around on the screen.

W/ any scaling, option-command-L will get you back to the last scale
size. Use this when you've zoomed in on an area & then want to back
out to your original [last] size.

If all else fails, command Z backs up the steps one at a time. Command
Y will move them fwd again.




Ciao,
Tkat

"If you wake up in the morning and nothing hurts,
it's a pretty good sign you've died during the night."

At 2005-05-09 08:56 -0700 tkat@tkat.com wrote:

>I'm going to divert here for a little while and delve into what I have
>discovered about changing the scale of the dwgs --- either temporally
>or permanently.

Tkat - with respect, I think there's the
possibility of a bit of confusion here.

Some the features you have very usefully detailed
refer to changing the scale of the elements in a
document, and some to changing the scale of the
display (or zooming).

>1. Bring up a new dwg or open an existing. In the lower left below
>the prompts is a box w/ a drop down menu. Select the scale you want.

All the objects drawn from now will be at the
chosen scale. As a demo, try the following:

Open a new drawing document (or use the
stationery pad you created with all your personal
preferences already set up).

Using the scale pop-up menu at the bottom below
the co-ordinate entry line, set the scale to 1:1
if not already set to that.

From the contextual menu (control-click) or the
toolbox palette, choose Line / Line at an angle.

Enter the co-ordinates 0, 0.

Enter the angle and length as 45, 5.

Now change the scale using the pop-up menu as above to 5:1.

Enter the co-ordinates 0, 0.

Enter the angle and length as 135, 5.

Now you may have to hit the Z (zoom) button at
top right to get it all at a sensible size on the
screen. Note that the 2 lines are different
lengths - one is 5 times longer than the other.
Their attributes include the scale they were
drawn at. You can always check the scale of an
object by choosing the measuring tool (Graphic /
Measure) and clicking on the object. In my case,
significant items in the measurement listing for
the above 2 lines are:

TypeLines
Pen1
Intensity100%
StyleSolidline
Color0, 0, 0
Width0.25
Group0
Layer1
Scale1:1
x00.00mm
y00.00mm
x13.54mm
y13.54mm
Length5.00mm
Angle45.00°
-
------------------------------
Measure
TypeLines
Pen1
Intensity100%
StyleSolidline
Color0, 0, 0
Width0.25
Group0
Layer1
Scale5:1
x0-3.54mm
y03.54mm
x10.00mm
y10.00mm
Length5.00mm
Angle315.00°
-
------------------------------
Measure

I captured the above text by choosing Saveinfo
as... from the File menu. I'm not sure if the
degree symbols in the Angle info will survive
passage through the various e-mail servers and
clients - apologies if they do not.

NB! although they appear as different lengths on
the screen (and on a printout) they are the same
length in CADintosh's internal database of
elements in that document!

Some aspects of the scale of document elements I
haven't fully got to grips with properly yet. For
instance, I found that in a document which had
different parts created in different scales,
there were some things I couldn't do. I went back
just now to see if I could re-create the issue
and give an example, but think I'm not recalling
it correctly as I can't reproduce it exactly.
Another thing is that the "imperial" scales
offered in the pop-up menu don't seem to do what
I would have expected. I don't find this a
handicap as I haven't needed to use them so far.

[Digression: I do remember that I had a drawing
with variously-scaled asemblies in it. To later
edit an area which was at a scale of 1:2.9 I had
to re-set the scale to that value. I now can't
remember why I picked that scale (I think it
might have been a calculated value, to fit
available space in an article, that didn't yield
a nice round number), and it seems it wasn't
exactly 2.9 anyway; if I just entered that value
in response to the prompt "Enter user defined
scale or select element:" things still didn't
work. I had to click on an element at the desired
scale instead of entering a value, and then all
was fine. That is a useful feature I tend to
forget about - the ability to pick up attributes
such as scale, pen width, etc direct from the
elements of the drawing.]

Anyway, one thing you can't do is to draw a line
(or indeed any other element) between 2 other
lines which have been created in different
scales. Just try drawing another line between the
ends (use line point-to-point & mid/end or auto
selection mode) of the 2 lines in the demo above
to close the triangle and see what happens! Also,
once you've got a few more elements on the
drawing so that the measure tool starts to work
properly with the first element highlighted in
red, you'll find that it is not happy if the
second element is not the same scale as the first.

>Don't worry about the basic point moving away. You can just reset it
>by clicking in the co-ords, upper left, and then in free hand mode set
>the point.

I don't find that the 0,0 point moves when I
change scale. In any case I prefer not to move
the 0,0 point freehand as it usually fouls up the
convenient integer distances from the 0,0 point
that I have chosen for important aspects of the
drawing. Entering the co-ordinates would be a
tidier option, if it worked. Thorsten, this seems
to be a bug!

>2. In the vertical right hand menu there are 5 symbols, the + & - will
>either increase or shrink the dwg by a factor of 2 --- either multiply
>by or divide 2.
>
>3. The "Z" in this menu will shrink the scale factor so the whole dwg
>will be shown.
>
>4. Clicking in the scale % box of the co-ord menu allows you to enter
>a new scale factor in %. Hit return or enter to activate.
>
>5. By clicking option-click and dragging the dwg can be zoomed. Be
>sure to click/drag where you want the zoom to be. That's where it
>happens. Sometimes this brings up a window that expands what's inside.
> I haven't figured out what it is that causes this to happen yet. W/
>my dwgs, it normally just zooms.

Items 2 - 5 above are all about zooming the whole
document - the display size. Any changes here do
not affect the scale of the drawing elements,
just how big they are on the screen.

>W/ any scaling, option-command-L will get you back to the last scale
>size. Use this when you've zoomed in on an area & then want to back
>out to your original [last] size.

Cmd-alt-L only works if you have already used the
alt-drag method to zoom in. It does not operate
if you have used the + or - buttons at top right.

>If all else fails, command Z backs up the steps one at a time. Command
>Y will move them fwd again.

Cmd-Z is Undo - but it doesn't (for me) appear to
have any effect upon the display zoom, whether
last done with the + & - buttons, or with
alt-drag. Nor does it revert the scale chosen
with the pop-up menu at bottom left to the
previous value. It just allows you to step back
through the elements you've created, deleting
them along the way. It won't go back beyond the
last Save, of course.

Thanks for all the work you have been doing to
enhance the CADintosh documentation. I hope my
comments are not seen as over-critical. You have
introduced me to things I'd not been aware of,
and together we're learning how to be more
productive.

regards

Rowland
--
| Wilma & Rowland Carson
| ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...

On May 10, 2005, at 9:16 AM, Rowland Carson wrote:

> At 2005-05-09 08:56 -0700 tkat@tkat.com wrote:
>
> >I'm going to divert here for a little while and delve into what I
> have
> >discovered about changing the scale of the dwgs --- either temporally
> >or permanently.
>
> Tkat - with respect, I think there's the
> possibility of a bit of confusion here.
>
> Some the features you have very usefully detailed
> refer to changing the scale of the elements in a
> document, and some to changing the scale of the
> display (or zooming).

Eyup. I don' know no betta.

>
> >1.  Bring up a new dwg or open an existing.  In the lower left below
> >the prompts is a box w/ a drop down menu.  Select the scale you want.
>
> All the objects drawn from now will be at the
> chosen scale. As a demo, try the following:
>

> Now you may have to hit the Z (zoom) button at
> top right to get it all at a sensible size on the
> screen. Note that the 2 lines are different
> lengths - one is 5 times longer than the other.
> Their attributes include the scale they were
> drawn at.

Now why would a'one want to have lines @ different scales on 1 dwg ???
[asking for info]

To me this is another case of the Kenworth tractor. --- 'way too
sophisticated.

> ----------------------------if I just entered that value
> in response to the prompt "Enter user defined
> scale or select element:" things still didn't
> work. I had to click on an element at the desired
> scale instead of entering a value, and then all
> was fine. That is a useful feature I tend to
> forget about - the ability to pick up attributes
> such as scale, pen width, etc direct from the
> elements of the drawing.]

Ah-Ha! For details! I'll never use that feature as I don't have a
plotter.

For when I've had to do large scale I just draw on another sheet [A
size] and note the scale.

>
> Anyway, one thing you can't do is to draw a line
> (or indeed any other element) between 2 other
> lines which have been created in different
> scales. Just try drawing another line between the
> ends (use line point-to-point & mid/end or auto
> selection mode) of the 2 lines in the demo above
> to close the triangle and see what happens! Also,
> once you've got a few more elements on the
> drawing so that the measure tool starts to work
> properly with the first element highlighted in
> red, you'll find that it is not happy if the
> second element is not the same scale as the first.
>
> >Don't worry about the basic point moving away.  You can just reset it
> >by clicking in the co-ords, upper left, and then in free hand mode
> set
> >the point.
>
> I don't find that the 0,0 point moves when I
> change scale. In any case I prefer not to move
> the 0,0 point freehand as it usually fouls up the
> convenient integer distances from the 0,0 point
> that I have chosen for important aspects of the
> drawing. Entering the co-ordinates would be a
> tidier option, if it worked. Thorsten, this seems
> to be a bug!

That's why I would like a "Points Menu". Absolute, relative, polar,
yadayada. But I've years habit work'n w/ that.

>
> >2.  In the vertical right hand menu there are 5 symbols, the + & -
> will
> >either increase or shrink the dwg by a factor of 2 --- either
> multiply
> >by or divide 2.
> >
> >3.  The "Z" in this menu will shrink the scale factor so the whole
> dwg
> >will be shown.
> >
> >4.  Clicking in the scale % box of the co-ord menu allows you to
> enter
> >a new scale factor in %.  Hit return or enter to activate.
> >
> >5.  By clicking option-click and dragging the dwg can be zoomed.  Be
> >sure to click/drag where you want the zoom to be.  That's where it
> >happens.  Sometimes this brings up a window that expands what's
> inside.
> >   I haven't figured out what it is that causes this to happen yet. 
> W/
> >my dwgs, it normally just zooms.
>
> Items 2 - 5 above are all about zooming the whole
> document - the display size. Any changes here do
> not affect the scale of the drawing elements,
> just how big they are on the screen.

Eyup, that way you can tell the fly specks from the pepper.

>
> >W/ any scaling, option-command-L will get you back to the last scale
> >size.  Use this when you've zoomed in on an area & then want to back
> >out to your original [last] size.
>
> Cmd-alt-L only works if you have already used the
> alt-drag method to zoom in. It does not operate
> if you have used the + or - buttons at top right.

Hummmmm.......................... OK, I haven't dug that far into it
--- obviously. I was just happy to find it.

>
> >If all else fails, command Z backs up the steps one at a time. 
> Command
> >Y will move them fwd again.
>
> Cmd-Z is Undo - but it doesn't (for me) appear to
> have any effect upon the display zoom, whether
> last done with the + & - buttons, or with
> alt-drag. ......................

OK, Unfortunately, when I have a chance to study, the computer is 8
miles away.

> Thanks for all the work you have been doing to
> enhance the CADintosh documentation. I hope my
> comments are not seen as over-critical. You have
> introduced me to things I'd not been aware of,
> and together we're learning how to be more
> productive.
>

Hell, no! You're the Guru. I'm just a brash rookie. You know more
about this system than I ever will. I just don't need all it's
firepower. Btw me bash'n my way thru the thickets w/ a chain saw and
your clean'n up my errors w/ a surgical tree shear, there should
develop a fairly good jump'n off point for future users.

If we can save others from the frustration that initially overcomes
rookies, it's worth the time. And what's the old say'n? If you really
want to know a subject, teach it.


Ciao,
Tkat

"The older I get, the faster I was."

At 2005-05-10 18:04 -0700 tkat@tkat.com wrote:

>Now why would a'one want to have lines @ different scales on 1 dwg

Tkat - one situation is where you have the whole component shown but
you also want to highlight a particular area at a larger scale with
the details easier to see. Conversely, I found it useful in the
example I quoted to be able to show one component at (nominal) full
size, and also show the assembly that it was incorporated into at a
reduced scale (the strange 1:2.9 I talked about).

>To me this is another case of the Kenworth tractor. --- 'way too
>sophisticated.

Perhaps more emphasis needs to be laid upon the difference between
scaling and zooming; most people won't often need to change scale
within one drawing, so they just need to be told "don't touch that
lever while driving". However, what would be really nice (=
sophisticated!) is if the scaling as chosen with the pop-up at the
bottom (or with the Options / Drawing... menu) was linked to the
scale info in the drawing data (from Edit / Drawing data... menu or
at creation of new drawing). But I would place that way down on my
wish list below things like making elliptical arcs work in the same
way as circular arcs (eg ability to select the end points).

>Hell, no! You're the Guru. I'm just a brash rookie. You know more
>about this system than I ever will

Well that's a first for me! Thanks for your kind words, but I don't
consider myself that elevated. My only drafting qualification is
Grammar School Senior Certificate in Practical Drawing, gained in
1962. As for CADintosh, I'm just learning as I go, finding out how to
make it do what I need on the day I need it.

regards

Rowland
--
| Wilma & Rowland Carson
| ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ...